Thread: is hgh worth it

Originally Posted by rahaas

Thanks for the info Victor.
I am not so concerned with fat loss. My biggest concern was the expense involved with gh. Sounds like I can get away with IGF for joint repair.

Keep in mind that testosterone raises IGF-1. Try Test alone before spending a bunch of hard earned cash brother.

Had to look up a study posted here and just finished reading the entire thread. I had a blast with this one. LOTS of great info here guys.



/V

question for Victor,
I have been advised to take 3 times a week 10IU , to increase muscle mass
I am 36 yo, 175cm height and 68kg
plan to use Test in parallel and Proscar to avoid to increase my hairloss...
I tain 4 to 5 times a week
Do you think that this is a good way to use HGH?
Thanks

Didsky, who advised you to do this?

Originally Posted by Didsky

question for Victor,
I have been advised to take 3 times a week 10IU , to increase muscle mass
I am 36 yo, 175cm height and 68kg
plan to use Test in parallel and Proscar to avoid to increase my hairloss...
I tain 4 to 5 times a week
Do you think that this is a good way to use HGH?
Thanks

No, it's not unless you are running slin and IGF and injecting via IM and taking all necessary precautions. 4-5 weeks on....than switch to IGF instead of slin. Otherwise, 4-6iu a day split in two via sub-q would work best. IMHO.

/V

In my opinion, HGH is the most over rated drug out there. I have used 4 different brands. 3 from small pharmas or UGL's and 1 was Pfizer's Genotropin. 3 to 4 IU's a day for 3 mo. with the off brands with no noticeable effects of any kind. 4 IU's a day for 4 mo. with Genotropin. That was the real deal, the fat around my waist just melted away. However, I didn't notice any muscle building effect. I used it "on cycle" in a test, deca cycle. No additional gain from a previous cycle with no HGH. It is way too expensive to be used as a fat loss drug. Unless you have a lot of bucks to waste. It is also doubtful that it is a life extension drug. Current research into life extension is in 3 areas. 1. Caloric restriction. 2. Preventing oxidative damage to the body's tissues. 3. Reduction of IGF-1 levels in the body. As everyone knows, HGH raises IGF-1 levels. Worldwide sales of HGH were in the 10's of billions of $ last year. These drug companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

ok great Victor,
thanks
and is it a problem to make it 6 days on 7?
Is it better to take Decabol or Test propionate in parallel? I have to consider the one that makes the less sides on my hairloss .... even if I use finasteride (proscar) I really fear to lose more..
thanks guys

Originally Posted by Didsky

ok great Victor,
thanks
and is it a problem to make it 6 days on 7?
Is it better to take Decabol or Test propionate in parallel? I have to consider the one that makes the less sides on my hairloss .... even if I use finasteride (proscar) I really fear to lose more..
thanks guys

I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly....are you asking if you can use it 6 days a week and not the full week? If so, yes....you can. Some use it 5 days a week....mainly for $ issues though.


/V

yes Victor that was my question, thanks. And the other question was the following:
I will run Decabol, or Test prop in parallel with HGH, but as I am fighting against hairloss (using proscar) which one of those products will help me building muscle mass with the lesser sides on my hairs...? Decabol or test prop?
and how much do I need to use weekly?
Thanks

Originally Posted by VictorZ06

I always try to explain myself with these topics the easiest way that I can. I'm not an MD nor am I a scientist, but I do explore and read as much as I can obsorb. I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I knew the exact and precise mechanism that these compounds have in relation to hyperplasia. I used the term "in a nutshell" to outline the basics behind the theory.

When posting, I really try and use Layman's terms so that others can get an idea of what we are talking about. The three points I laid out were to simplify my reasoning and explanation. I don't think you can object to these points.

• Can we agree that elevated levels of test will elevate levels of HGH?

• Can we agree that HGH elevates the levels of IGF-1?

• Can we agree that IGF-1 is the main cause of hyperplasia?

Like I said, if we can agree on these points above, there really isn't much more to read into. Bottom line, IGF-1 is the primary and most effective way to cause hyperplasia.

/V

Looks like HGH may be a bust for healthy men after all. Here is an excerpt from a very recent study.

Phys Sportsmed. 2010 Oct;38(3):97-104.

Anabolic processes in human skeletal muscle: restoring the identities of growth hormone and testosterone.

West DW, Phillips SM.

Growth Hormone

Growth hormone acts both directly through its receptor and indirectly through systemic IGF-1 to regulate a variety of tissues (Figure 2). It is well established that growth and maturation of the musculoskeletal system is mediated by systemic changes in the GH/IGF-1 axis.12 For example, a deficiency or excess of GH during growth can result in overt musculoskeletal changes (eg, slowed or accelerated changes in stature, respectively). Furthermore, GH plays an important role in regulating body composition in adult life; rhGH supplementation in clinically GH-deficient individuals restores “normal” fat to lean tissue distribution through decreased fat mass and increased lean tissue assimilation. In addition, GH and muscle mass are reduced in tandem with age, which can lead to an inaccurate interpretation that there is a cause-and-effect relationship. Based on this logic, GH could be viewed as an attractive ergogenic aid to maintain strength and muscle mass in elderly populations. Although GH replacement can be used to recover lean body mass in individuals with clinical GH deficiency, studies by Taaffe et al13,14 revealed that rhGH supplementation did not augment gains in strength or muscle fiber hypertrophy following resistance training in elderly men. These findings are in agreement with studies by Yarasheski et al,15,16 who found that while whole-body protein synthesis was increased, there was no augmentation of muscle protein synthesis with rhGH supplementation in both young and old men. Moreover, in sedentary elderly men, 16 weeks of GH and resistance exercise conferred no added strength gains across 9 exercises versus resistance exercise plus placebo.16 Not surprisingly, there was no difference observed between groups in muscle protein synthesis. Although increases in fat-free mass were greater in the GH group, the authors demonstrated that a disproportionate amount of the mass was because of increased total body water,16 which may be partly due to a hydrating process of newly synthesized connective tissue that equilibrates with extracellular fluid. This is also not surprising because GH acutely and chronically alters the regulation of water and electrolytes by the kidneys, resulting in an expanded extracellular volume.17

View: (Figure 3 ) - From essential to extraneous: factors that influence skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
http://www.physsportsmed.com/figures...14?figure=1421


There is good evidence that GH can favorably affect body composition by stimulating lipolysis18 and increasing lean body mass. For example, in a 6-month randomized controlled trial in healthy elderly men, administration of low-dose GH significantly increased lean body mass by approximately 2 kg.19 However, the increased mass did not translate into strength changes, implying that GH can promote fluid retention, but not affect functional (ie, strength-promoting) muscle protein accretion. Indeed, GH-induced increases in lean body mass can be misinterpreted as muscle growth, but instead are primarily related to body water retention16 that accompanies the accretion of lean tissue that arises from elevated whole-body protein synthesis. Thus, while using GH as a therapeutic agent in cases of clinical deficiency can help recover muscle mass and strength20 at normal or even supraphysiological levels, anabolic effects are directed toward the synthesis of collagen, not contractile myofibrillar proteins.21 For example, Wallace et al22 reported large increases in markers of bone and soft tissue formation with GH supplementation after acute endurance exercise. These findings are in agreement with the report that 7 days of GH administration stimulated collagen-producing osteoblasts and activated bone remodelling.23 Circulating GH and IGF-1 are thought to also increase collagen synthesis by fibroblasts and increased fibroblast cell division in the extracellular matrix and tendons.24

In summary, there is little support for GH having an effect on muscle hypertrophy. Rather, accumulating evidence suggests that GH functions primarily to increase the synthesis of whole-body proteins and connective tissue, in particular increasing water retention and altering body composition. Accordingly, GH supplementation does not increase myofibrillar protein synthesis or muscle strength in healthy individuals.
Thus, Figure 3 places GH at the top of the pyramid of factors regulating hypertrophy, indicating that its contribution is negligible.

Conflict of Interest Statement
Daniel W. D. West and Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM disclose no conflicts of interest.


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Daniel W.D. West 1
Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM 1

1Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Correspondence: Stuart M. Phillips, PhD, FACSM, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, Ontario, L8S 4K1, Canada.

This article is a review of existing literature, and may be viewed in its entirety here: http://www.physsportsmed.com/pdf-ser...articleID=1814

The authors conclude there is little evidence for the conjecture, but not that there is none, and not that it is not true, just to be clear.

The authors also fail to distinguish between replacement and supra-physiologic dosing for all but one study - in fact, no mention of actual dosing is made at all, and it is only for Doessing et al (citation 21) where supraphysiologic levels were tested. See abstract posted below; note the dosing:

Growth hormone stimulates the collagen synthesis in human tendon and skeletal muscle without affecting myofibrillar protein synthesis

1. Simon Doessing1,
2. Katja M. Heinemeier1,
3. Lars Holm1,
4. Abigail L. Mackey1,
5. Peter Schjerling1,
6. Michael Rennie3,
7. Kenneth Smith3,
8. Søren Reitelseder1,
9. Anne-Marie Kappelgaard4,
10. Michael Højby Rasmussen4,
11. Allan Flyvbjerg5 and
12. Michael Kjaer1

+ Author Affiliations

1.
1Institute of Sports Medicine, Bispebjerg Hospital, Center of Healthy Aging, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Bispebjerg Bakke 23, DK-2400 Copenhagen NV, Denmark2Department of Endocrinology, Copenhagen University Hospital Rigshospitalet, Blegdamsvej 9, DK-2100 Copenhagen Ø, Denmark3School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Nottingham Medical School, Derby City General Hospital, Derby DE22 3DT, UK4Medical & Science, Global Development, Novo Nordisk, DK-2880 Bagsvaerd, Denmark5The Medical Research Laboratories, Clinical Institute and Medical Department M (Diabetes and Endocrinology), Aarhus University Hospital, Aarhus C, Denmark

1. Corresponding author
S. Doessing: Institute of Sports Medicine, Bispebjerg Hospital, Center of Healthy Aging, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Bispebjerg Bakke 23, DK-2400 Copenhagen NV, Denmark.  Email: simondoessing@gmail.com

Abstract

In skeletal muscle and tendon the extracellular matrix confers important tensile properties and is crucially important for tissue regeneration after injury. Musculoskeletal tissue adaptation is influenced by mechanical loading, which modulates the availability of growth factors, including growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), which may be of key importance. To test the hypothesis that GH promotes matrix collagen synthesis in musculotendinous tissue, we investigated the effects of 14 day administration of 33–50 μg kg−1 day−1 recombinant human GH (rhGH) in healthy young individuals. rhGH administration caused an increase in serum GH, serum IGF-I, and IGF-I mRNA expression in tendon and muscle. Tendon collagen I mRNA expression and tendon collagen protein synthesis increased by 3.9-fold and 1.3-fold, respectively (P < 0.01 and P = 0.02), and muscle collagen I mRNA expression and muscle collagen protein synthesis increased by 2.3-fold and 5.8-fold, respectively (P < 0.01 and P = 0.06). Myofibrillar protein synthesis was unaffected by elevation of GH and IGF-I. Moderate exercise did not enhance the effects of GH manipulation. Thus, increased GH availability stimulates matrix collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle and tendon, but without any effect upon myofibrillar protein synthesis. The results suggest that GH is more important in strengthening the matrix tissue than for muscle cell hypertrophy in adult human musculotendinous tissue

The highest dosing was 50 μg/kg/day, which for a 200 lb (90kg) man would be 4.5 mg.

1 mg GH is 3 IU, so this would be a rather profound dose - 13.5 IU daily.

However, it was only administered for 14 days. I don't know anyone who only runs GH for two weeks.

I remain on the fence. Which is cool, I get to see both sides.

Carry on.

Yup, but we know for a fact testosterone increases muscle cell size and number and is cheaper than HGH.

The statement in your above abstract about HGH is hard to overlook.

Thus, increased GH availability stimulates matrix collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle and tendon, but without any effect upon myofibrillar protein synthesis.

Interesting stuff. I'm not sure the best of variables were used in the study, but it goes to show. Good posts guys!!

/V

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Yup, but we know for a fact testosterone increases muscle cell size and number and is cheaper than HGH.

Indeed. Nobody I know ever got jacked off HGH.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

The statement in your above abstract about HGH is hard to overlook.

Thus, increased GH availability stimulates matrix collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle and tendon, but without any effect upon myofibrillar protein synthesis.

What I'm interested to know is what effect a longer dosing protocol has on satellite cells. 14 days really doesn't compare with the many-months protocols seen in physical culture.

Originally Posted by Built

Indeed. Nobody I know ever got jacked off HGH.

What I'm interested to know is what effect a longer dosing protocol has on satellite cells. 14 days really doesn't compare with the many-months protocols seen in physical culture.

Yeah, I would like to see a longer dosing protocol as well but lets be honest. Protein synthesis probably does not magically happen on day 15+ when there was zero activity before that.

To be fair, if short term results were profound, we wouldn't see BB running GH for six months at a time either.

I have never read a post on any BB board where the individual ran GH for fourteen days and noted any kind of result at all.

Did any of these studies even check for satellite cells?

Originally Posted by Built

To be fair, if short term results were profound, we wouldn't see BB running GH for six months at a time either.

I have never read a post on any BB board where the individual ran GH for fourteen days and noted any kind of result at all.

Did any of these studies even check for satellite cells?

Yeah, this has been my position for years. HGH just is not cost effective. You have to run very long cycles to see minor improvements. HGH just is very little bang for the buck. A $50 vial of Testosterone blows away $500 worth of GH everytime.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Yeah, this has been my position for years. HGH just is not cost effective. You have to run very long cycles to see minor improvements. HGH just is very little bang for the buck. A $50 vial of Testosterone blows away $500 worth of GH everytime.

Except that test is virilizing. GH is not. Other than that, you bet.