Thread: First Cycle: 600mg ramp to 1000mg

Don't "ramp" or change your test dose during your cycle. Your plasma levels will flux and you want to avoid that. Pick a test dose and stick with it.

/V

Originally Posted by Mags

Are these latter, high-dosage shots going to be a problem? Is pinning 500mg in one shot going to be significantly trickier than 300mg?

to avoid pain/discomfort as well as excess scar tissue, you really don't want to pin more than 2ml per injection site, so if your using 250mg/ml that would be fine.

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

Yeah, I was trying to work out the minimum of what I needed so I knew what sort of amounts I was ordering (and so when I talk to the guy at the gym he doesn't try and sell me a ton of stuff I'll not need). And, like you said, most of the stuff I'll pick up will be in set amounts packs, I imagine. Will defo get extra bits so I don't run out. I can always save any useable leftovers for another possible cycle.

Originally Posted by VictorZ06

Your plasma levels will flux and you want to avoid that. /V

Why is this detrimental? I can understand fluctuating doses could be bad, but steadily building them upwards seems logical. I'm not disputing your understanding, as mine is very limited here, but would be good if you could elaborate a little.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Wow, very well thought out! Looks good!

I personally like to keep extra of everyting on hand because you will likely need it. For example most guys can only get 9.5ml out of a vial of testosterone as some always gets stuck in the syringe bubble. What happens if you spill a few Clomid down the drain on accident. What if you drop a pin on the floor, you will have to toss it. See where I am going here?

kinda like me spilling 1/2 an amp of test p on my leg 3 days ago, lol. Luckily I have more test than I really need :-)

hey to get the most out of ur vial suck up some vit b12(1/4cc) first then suck up test so if anything gets wasted its just b12 which costs 5 bucks a vial

Originally Posted by revolution187

hey to get the most out of ur vial suck up some vit b12(1/4cc) first then suck up test so if anything gets wasted its just b12 which costs 5 bucks a vial

The B12 will stay at the bottom (last thing out of the syringe)? If that's true... Seems like a sweet idea.

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

Originally Posted by dg806

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

I second that.

You could add an oral. Prohormones like H-Drol go well with Test.

Way too much HCG at the end. Refer to the link in my sig.

Have more Aromasin on hand.

The reasoning behind your cycle is understandable. However I feel that going up that high on the test is a bit much.

Instead, I would keep the test at about 600mg ew the entire time, and add in NPP for the last 6 weeks. You could add a bulking oral in place of NPP like drol of dbol, but the NPP will give you the added benefit of increased collagen synthesis.

Originally Posted by Pirate!

You could add an oral. Prohormones like H-Drol go well with Test.

How does H-drol work well with test? Is it because the difference in compound structure makes them effectively synergistic together or something else? Also, would you still run standard doses?

Originally Posted by Pirate!

Have more Aromasin on hand.

Is this to counter any excessive estrogen sides, or for some other reason? Another thing regarding estrogen management when on cycle: I'm happy to take on a bit of bloat from water, but don't want to resemble a walking hot-water bottle or incur too many of its sides - am I right in that added water weight increases bp?

Cheers.

JMO but i would stick to same amount of test through out, i have done many cycles and the last i upped the dose and to be honest i didnt see or feel much of a difference apart from in my pocket....JMO like i said. Good luck anyway mate.

Originally Posted by Dragon_MD

The reasoning behind your cycle is understandable. However I feel that going up that high on the test is a bit much.

Instead, I would keep the test at about 600mg ew the entire time, and add in NPP for the last 6 weeks. You could add a bulking oral in place of NPP like drol of dbol, but the NPP will give you the added benefit of increased collagen synthesis.

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

Originally Posted by dg806

For a first cycle, I dont think you need to go that high. You will see very good results at 500mg and that will give you room in the future to increase dosage if needed.

Please explain your reasoning for this statement. I have experienced the exact oppositte many times.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Please explain your reasoning for this statement. I have experienced the exact oppositte many times.

Opposite as in how?
If you start at a high dose say 750mg/wk, do you think most people see the same gains next time around at 500mgs? I don't. Most people including myself have to go with higher doses to see the same gains. Then you are just asking for problems with sides if you really dont know what you are doing. And most people are not experts with anabolics and when you add in multiple compounds, how do you know exactly which compound is causing the problem and what do you take for that problem without causing a problem somewhere else? (as you posted in previous psot) I am also a believer that upping the dose on every single cycle is not needed. I have seen many guys never go above 500-750mg/wk. Training and diet mean as much as the drugs do. They can always be tweaked to get gains.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

I understand where your coming from, but the strength gains and decreased collagen synthesis, which is dose dependent, could lead to injury with that much test on a first run. I think adding npp at 300mg ew is low enough to not cause any libido problems, increase collagen synthesis, and have very little sides. Of course if goes with cyop or enanthate, I would add deca over NPP. Anavar could also be a viable option. I just think that to over come the slowing of gains, you can add a compound rather than continuously upping the test dose.

However, if you have a good strong foundation, he may be able to get a way with just testosterone and avoid some of the problems I Mentioned. Just different opinions I guess.

Originally Posted by dg806

Opposite as in how?
If you start at a high dose say 750mg/wk, do you think most people see the same gains next time around at 500mgs? I don't. Most people including myself have to go with higher doses to see the same gains. Then you are just asking for problems with sides if you really dont know what you are doing. And most people are not experts with anabolics and when you add in multiple compounds, how do you know exactly which compound is causing the problem and what do you take for that problem without causing a problem somewhere else? (as you posted in previous psot) I am also a believer that upping the dose on every single cycle is not needed. I have seen many guys never go above 500-750mg/wk. Training and diet mean as much as the drugs do. They can always be tweaked to get gains.

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

Originally Posted by Dragon_MD

I just think that to over come the slowing of gains, you can add a compound rather than continuously upping the test dose.

I assumed this was the norm regarding the progression of AAS use: increase the doses or try/add new compound(s) to see greater results.

Originally Posted by Dragon_MD

However, if you have a good strong foundation, he may be able to get a way with just testosterone and avoid some of the problems I Mentioned. Just different opinions I guess.

Despite having dabbled with PHs and weaker steroids, I have always put off doing 'proper' juice until I felt my physical potential was reached, my body was used to lifting heavy poundages, and gaining and keeping weight was achievable. I've lifted for almost 10 years now and have always had labour-intensive jobs since I was 14. Therefore, I feel I have a strong frame with muscles, tendons and ligaments familiar to strenuous activity. Hopefully that previous sentence isn't tempting fate. :/

Originally Posted by heavyiron

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

Although I have no medical backround as heavy and dragon do I must agree with with heavy. I have always held the belief that the purpose of pct and off cycling was to restore ones body to a natural hormonal balance. If this is done correctly in theory one should be able to get the same benifits from the same dose time and time again as there is no real "tolerance" to hormones like there is with other drugs. If someone were continually cycling test at higher and lower doses I would expect that there would be some sort of significant flucuation in the effects since you never really restored the proper levels to begin with.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Using several compounds on a first cycle can be problematic. If he develops sides he will not know which compound is causing them. Additionally Nandrolone has been linked to libido issues so for a first run I would advise against it. If he uses nandrolone he will likely need another med to control the progesterone sides which may be a bit much the first time around.

I like his cycle design as I have done over 20 similar cycles except at higher doses. My first cycle I increased dose every week until I hit around 1,500mg weekly. The gains were dramatic to say the least.

This is why I wanted to keep it just test. I feel that with the HCG and Aromasin in addition, I’ll already feel like a walking chemistry set (a daft notion to those of you who have cycled combinations of stronger compounds, I’m sure). And like Heavy mentioned, if there are any problems, I want to keep the culprit choices down to a minimum. I won’t be kick-starting with the likes of dbol or drol, either. can see the added benefits of Deca and the like for joints and collagen, too, but I’d rather keep this cycle as simple as possible. I know the high doses toward the end of the cycle doesn’t give the impression of one trying to keep it simple or being cautious, but I want to be as safe, as straightforward and as organised as possible.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

According to you I will not see gains if I don't use my max previous dose of 2,600mg weekly but yet I can make gains with much less mg weekly. I think the thread parrots have been spreading the myth that once you use a high dose you can never return to lower doses for gains. That is not true.

Where in my quote did I say you could not make gains? I said your gains would not be as great (same gains)as with a higher doseage. Big difference. Sure you make gains on smaller quantities.
Of course you want the same gains or bigger on each cycle. But in reality that doesnt happen each time and giving people the advice to up the dosage to these levels is just plain bad advice unless you are pro caliber and I dont see any on this board. Sorry JMO.

I am going to prepare the cycle to suit the design (as if to increase the doses at time progresses). However, it all depends on how I get on during the cycle regarding gains and sides that will determine if I go higher or not. Like I mentioned in the the initial post, if all's going well and sides aren't too much of a factor, then I might increase the dose. However, if gains are still coming thick and fast, then I the higher doses might seem superflous. So, in short, I'll go with the increased dose cycle design, but will wait and see when on the cycle whether I deviate from it and stick with the straight 500-600mg flat over the 10 weeks.

Cheers for the array of interest and advice, folks.

Its never a good sign when the mods argue

Originally Posted by jcar1016

Its never a good sign when the mods argue

Can we call it a heated debate instead? Both have an wealth of knowledge and experience, yet different views on this particular topic. While each can accept valid points from the one another, I'm guessing this will only be settled by 'agreeing to disagree'.

I've tried to appease all parties with my previous post, so hopefully that'll halt a further clash of the titans .

In all seriousness, though - and in fairness to Heavy - this is is a suggested cycle for those who want to get more out of their first cycle. However, the main cycle he advises in his thread is closer to the more common 10-week flat cycle at 600mg EW. Which, I guess, makes me the irresponsible and foolish one if I decide to ignore the suggested warnings. I understand taking AAS is serious stuff. And I will do my utmost to ensure my health isn't jeopardised.

Thanks for all the input, I'll give it all some serious consideration.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by jcar1016

its never a good sign when the mods argue

why? Do you think because they are mods they will agree on everything?

Originally Posted by dg806

Where in my quote did I say you could not make gains? I said your gains would not be as great (same gains)as with a higher doseage. Big difference. Sure you make gains on smaller quantities.
Of course you want the same gains or bigger on each cycle. But in reality that doesnt happen each time and giving people the advice to up the dosage to these levels is just plain bad advice unless you are pro caliber and I dont see any on this board. Sorry JMO.

But the gains can be as great or even greater. I have seen it over and over again during the last 22 years of my own use and those who use around me. I have probably somewhere around 50 guys and gals that are personal friends of mine that are on aas right now. Not people on the net, actual friends. I have a pretty large number of friends that compete on the local level as well as the national level. Bodybuilders, figure girls, strongman, and power lifters. I am a chem advisor on various boards including private invite only forums. I see this stuff everyday and I know for a fact that you are wrong. Its not your fault you have believed the thread parrots because they are everywhere. I have run more drugs personally than most guys will their entire lives. I am a walking chemistry experiment. I use drugs just to see what they will do and record it in a diary. I have been in literally thousands of consults on aas on the net. My PM box at most sites hold 2,000 PMs and I have to dump them monthly. I imagine not a single person on this board has consulted as many guys and gals that I have. Not only do I possess a high level of experience in this field I have also studied the science behind it extensively. I let misinformation slide everyday on this board because most people pushing it don't want to know the tuth. They just want to spout off the same crap every thread parrot spews on every other site. Guess who site owners PM when they want the answers? Guess who the site owners e-mail when they need emergency aas advice. Nearly every site I have led on I am asked by the mods or owners what to do when it comes to aas application. Seriously, who do you think you are to tell me what bad advice is? Have you run drugs for over 22 years? How many cycles have you run and recorded the results in a diary or spreadsheet? How many competitors do you advise? How many chem sections do you lead at on the net? How many chem sections have you built? I realize you may not know me but those who do listen.

Mags can PM me or Dragon anytime during his course. If he has a problem we will help him get on track. A gram a week is childs play if you know how to manage the sides. Do you know how to manage them?

Sorry but I can't take the misinformation today.

Originally Posted by Robert

why? Do you think because they are mods they will agree on everything?

Originally Posted by heavyiron

But the gains can be as great or even greater. I have seen it over and over again during the last 22 years of my own use and those who use around me. I have probably somewhere around 50 guys and gals that are personal friends of mine that are on aas right now. Not people on the net, actual friends. I have a pretty large number of friends that compete on the local level as well as the national level. Bodybuilders, figure girls, strongman, and power lifters. I am a chem advisor on various boards including private invite only forums. I see this stuff everyday and I know for a fact that you are wrong. Its not your fault you have believed the thread parrots because they are everywhere. I have run more drugs personally than most guys will their entire lives. I am a walking chemistry experiment. I use drugs just to see what they will do and record it in a diary. I have been in literally thousands of consults on aas on the net. My PM box at most sites hold 2,000 PMs and I have to dump them monthly. I imagine not a single person on this board has consulted as many guys and gals that I have. Not only do I possess a high level of experience in this field I have also studied the science behind it extensively. I let misinformation slide everyday on this board because most people pushing it don't want to know the tuth. They just want to spout off the same crap every thread parrot spews on every other site. Guess who site owners PM when they want the answers? Guess who the site owners e-mail when they need emergency aas advice. Nearly every site I have led on I am asked by the mods or owners what to do when it comes to aas application. Seriously, who do you think you are to tell me what bad advice is? Have you run drugs for over 22 years? How many cycles have you run and recorded the results in a diary or spreadsheet? How many competitors do you advise? How many chem sections do you lead at on the net? How many chem sections have you built? I realize you may not know me but those who do listen.

Mags can PM me or Dragon anytime during his course. If he has a problem we will help him get on track. A gram a week is childs play if you know how to manage the sides. Do you know how to manage them?

Sorry but I can't take the misinformation today. It just irritates me to see constant unfounded info on this board.

This is why robert because two good guys like heavy and dg are at each other and of course I dont think the mods all agree then we would only need 1 right?