Thread: My Gyno reversal/treatment/maintenance attempt and log...

Today's my 3rd day (1.5mg of liquid letro) and .25mg of caber.

Still no real progress, but I'm assuming it's early to expect anything yet. Still have a significant lump under left nipple and they're both puffy as hell still. Hoping this will go down after a few days on 2.5mg's of Letro.

I'm probably going to drop my caber dose to .25mg eod for the remainder of the week and then go to the typical .25mg-.5mg twice/week next week on.

i think you will need surgery!

Originally Posted by WFC2010

i think you will need surgery!

its not that bad...just something I'd like to get rid off

It's been a week now since I started to taper towards a full letro dose(3 days at 2.5mg now).

It seems like the puffyness is getting a little better already.

The lumps are still there, but the larger of the two(left side) is not sore or tender anymore which shows some definite progress at least.

Still dosing caber at .25mg eod as of a few days ago.

keep at bro and fill us in

Everything's about the same, no more tenderness...less puffy.

No significant decrease in the size of the lump yet, although I feel like it might be getting a little smaller.

What really sucks is the fact that I'm shot!!! I'm completely exhausted which I'm blaming on the letro. My job requires early mornings and long days which doesn't help, but I'm going to have to consider tapering down soon if this doesn't get better as it's starting to effect my ability to stay production at work.


It wouldn't be reccomended to taper down yet, so I'll give it a couple more days. It is definitly doing what it's supposed to, I have every sign of low estro there is, lol.

Been 8 days at 2.5 mg of letro,

Unfortunately the lump isn't getting smaller as I had thought and overall I feel like shit(tired, not motivated, etc..) which I'm attributing to low estro. Woke up in a pool of sweat last night as if I'm going through menopause or something, lol... Again, a sign that estrogen is too low.

Like I mentioned the gyno isn't all that bad so I think I'm going to start to taper down a bit(.5mg decrease/day). Might see how I feel on 1.5mg/day for a while otherwise I'm dropping to .5mg until switching over to aromasin and nolva for pct in a few weeks. The way I've been feeling is not worth the letro "possibly" reversing this. It has stopped it in it's tracks which I am happy with.

I took .25mg of caber ed for about 4 days then eod for a few days. Now I'm doing .5mg twice/week. There are a lot of rumors about Caber not being stable in liquid...well the small amount of lactation is long gone. Unless letro can effectively lower prolactin and stop lactating nipples then I have to believ that this liquid caber is good to go.

I tapered down to 1mg/day(have been at this dose for the last few days) and I swear my nipples are a little bit sensitive again...WTF??? I thought letro was strong shit, like really strong shit. This liquid letro is not.

I'm just on 150mg of prop eod right now 550/week, and up to 80mg of oral tbol/day but that is not "supposed" to cause problems. I really thought 1mg of letro would be overkill for estro control maintenance but I guess not.

My cycle is coming to an end soon and I'm getting kinda nervous about my hcg causing problems(planning 500iu ed for 10 days) as well as exactly how and when to transition off of letro and on to aromasin and nolva which will be my pct.

Any suggestions are definitely welcome

Dman bro that sux an it sounds like you've tried bout everything so either your just paranoid or your just ubersensitive to gyno. You realize some guys actually get gyno naturally right some are just far more prone to it. Sounds like at this point you might just need to talk to a doc if it bothers you that much. Good Luck bro

Contrary to popular belief Letro is not much stronger than other AI's in men. It reduces E2 about the same as Aromasin but is inferior because it is not a suicide inhibitor so once you stop using it you will have estro rebound. I would switch to Aromasin immediately. 25mg Aromasin ed. If you want to really lower E2 then take 25mg Aromasin every 12 hours since the half life of Aromasin is shorter in men.

Are you in pct currently, or are you in the middle of a cycle that you just decided to abandon? Dude if i had a dime for all the conflicting so called dead on exports ,and there oppions , i,d be rich. But in terms of overall all effectiveness and pure ability to inhibit the highest percentage of estrogen ,the consensus rate letro as being so strong that it may even be able to help reverse the ill effects of gyno atleast to a degree. Sesond best grade goes to aridimex so they say . I,m also very suseptable to high incedence of aromatization ,and i,v read every thing from using combo,s of nolv. clomid and proviren ,and the next day i,ll read nolva. will wipe out the effectivness of aridimex, just after hearing aridemex is hands down guarantied to keep away unwanted effects. One thing that i read that sounded plausible was nolva. and aromisin ,because the aromisin which is an A.I is ALMOST AS as strong as aridemex and letro, but the difference is that the potency of the aromisin is not compromised when used in conjuction with nolva.,but conversely the other two big boys on the block have there potency diminished by the nolva. Just trying to impart some knowledge,but honestly i know were all different and we all react differently to different meds. In some circles i,v read if your past a certain age, or if your highly suseptable to gyno ,and it,s ill effects, to just stay away from any pure test in your cycles,and and to just rely on something like equipoise.

I'm not overly worried since its nowhere near as sensitive as it was before and it could definitely be worse.

Heavy, I was taking 25mg of aromasin/day to try to help this initially which did not help. Seeing as how the cycle is wrapping up soon the combo of aromasin/nolva for pct should be more than enough with no test in my system... hopefully

Originally Posted by sambaga

Are you in pct currently, or are you in the middle of a cycle that you just decided to abandon? Dude if i had a dime for all the conflicting so called dead on exports ,and there oppions , i,d be rich. But in terms of overall all effectiveness and pure ability to inhibit the highest percentage of estrogen ,the consensus rate letro as being so strong that it may even be able to help reverse the ill effects of gyno atleast to a degree. Sesond best grade goes to aridimex so they say . I,m also very suseptable to high incedence of aromatization ,and i,v read every thing from using combo,s of nolv. clomid and proviren ,and the next day i,ll read nolva. will wipe out the effectivness of aridimex, just after hearing aridemex is hands down guarantied to keep away unwanted effects. One thing that i read that sounded plausible was nolva. and aromisin ,because the aromisin which is an A.I is ALMOST AS as strong as aridemex and letro, but the difference is that the potency of the aromisin is not compromised when used in conjuction with nolva.,but conversely the other two big boys on the block have there potency diminished by the nolva. Just trying to impart some knowledge,but honestly i know were all different and we all react differently to different meds. In some circles i,v read if your past a certain age, or if your highly suseptable to gyno ,and it,s ill effects, to just stay away from any pure test in your cycles,and and to just rely on something like equipoise.

Arimidex maximally supresses estrogen in men about 50%, Aromasin and Letro about 62%. Letro has a longer half life and is one reason guys report better results with Letro.

Originally Posted by DaBeast25

I'm not overly worried since its nowhere near as sensitive as it was before and it could definitely be worse.

Heavy, I was taking 25mg of aromasin/day to try to help this initially which did not help. Seeing as how the cycle is wrapping up soon the combo of aromasin/nolva for pct should be more than enough with no test in my system... hopefully

For gyno treatment or contest prep you need to dose Aromasin every 12 hours. Most info on the net about its half life is incorrect because guys are relying on female studies. Aromasin has a shorter half life in men. If you use Aromasin to just control E2 then once daily administration is fine.



Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Nelly Mauras, John Lima, Deval Patel, Annie Rini, Enrico di Salle, Ambrose Kwok and Barbara Lippe
Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Nelly Mauras, M.D., Nemours Children’s Clinic, 807 Children’s Way, Jacksonville, Florida 32207. E-mail: nmauras@nemours.org.

Abstract

Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.

full study;
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/88/12/5951

Well, I don't know if this will help but ever hear of mastitis? It's when breastfeeding women get clogged and the breast gets engorged with milk. The result is very painful, and the tissue feels like rock. Royal PITA I can tell you.

The solution is to use hot compresses a few times a day. Soak a washcloth in water as hot as you can stand (don't burn yourself but close) and use it on the affected area. Works great. Might help with the soreness/pain.

heavy,

I was under the impression(based on most of the info/profiles regarding it) that letro inhibited more like 98% of estrogen which is why it is so prefered for serious gyno issues/prevention.

Not disagreeing with you, but why is the info on letro so different most other places?

I have to see how much aromasin I have on hand maybe I'll go 25mg 2x/day until pct, then drop to 25mg 1x/day and add nolva.

Originally Posted by DaBeast25

heavy,

I was under the impression(based on most of the info/profiles regarding it) that letro inhibited more like 98% of estrogen which is why it is so prefered for serious gyno issues/prevention.

Not disagreeing with you, but why is the info on letro so different most other places?

I have to see how much aromasin I have on hand maybe I'll go 25mg 2x/day until pct, then drop to 25mg 1x/day and add nolva.

Letro does inhibit high levels of E2 in postmenopausal females but not in males. You cannot use a female study on AI's and apply it to men. The thread parrots all over the net have taken data from female studies and applied it to males out of ignorance.

As far as why the data is different in men vs women, the reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to the shorter half-life of AI's in males, the lower exposure to the AI, and the higher levels of the aromatase substrates androstenedione (1 ng/ml in young males vs. 0.5 ng/ml in postmenopausal women), particularly the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women (700 ng/dl vs. 20 ng/dl, respectively) This is supported by the 10-d Aromasin study in young males, the suppression of estradiol is weaker (due to the very high levels of the precursor testosterone) than that of estrone (due to androstenedione levels not very different from those in postmenopausal women). A limited suppression of circulating estradiol (50%) has been reported in a similar study in young males treated with 1 mg daily anastrozole, a dose that reduces estradiol by 85% in postmenopausal women.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Letro does inhibit high levels of E2 in postmenopausal females but not in males. You cannot use a female study on AI's and apply it to men. The thread parrots all over the net have taken data from female studies and applied it to males out of ignorance.

As far as why the data is different in men vs women, the reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to the shorter half-life of AI's in males, the lower exposure to the AI, and the higher levels of the aromatase substrates androstenedione (1 ng/ml in young males vs. 0.5 ng/ml in postmenopausal women), particularly the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women (700 ng/dl vs. 20 ng/dl, respectively) This is supported by the 10-d Aromasin study in young males, the suppression of estradiol is weaker (due to the very high levels of the precursor testosterone) than that of estrone (due to androstenedione levels not very different from those in postmenopausal women). A limited suppression of circulating estradiol (50%) has been reported in a similar study in young males treated with 1 mg daily anastrozole, a dose that reduces estradiol by 85% in postmenopausal women.

Interesting, it's too bad they don't conduct studies on all these ai's with men. I understand why they don't, it just leaves a little bit of a grey area.

Originally Posted by DaBeast25

Interesting, it's too bad they don't conduct studies on all these ai's with men. I understand why they don't, it just leaves a little bit of a grey area.

Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition

Guy G. T’Sjoen, Vito A. Giagulli, Hans Delva, Patricia Crabbe, Dirk De Bacquer and Jean-Marc Kaufman

Department of Endocrinology (G.G.T., H.D., P.C., J.-M.K.), Ghent University Hospital, 9000 Ghent, Belgium; Department of Public Health (D.D.B.), Ghent University, 9000 Ghent, Belgium; and Department of Internal Medicine Subdivision Endocrinology (V.A.G.), Ospedale Putignano-Noci, 70017 Bari, Italy
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: G. T’Sjoen, M.D., Department of Endocrinology, Ghent University Hospital, De Pintelaan 185, 9000 Ghent, Belgium. E-mail: guy.tsjoen@ugent.be .

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.
Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.
Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.
Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).
Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.
Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-µg GnRH bolus.
Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01). Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/90/10/5717

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition

Guy G. T’Sjoen, Vito A. Giagulli, Hans Delva, Patricia Crabbe, Dirk De Bacquer and Jean-Marc Kaufman

Department of Endocrinology (G.G.T., H.D., P.C., J.-M.K.), Ghent University Hospital, 9000 Ghent, Belgium; Department of Public Health (D.D.B.), Ghent University, 9000 Ghent, Belgium; and Department of Internal Medicine Subdivision Endocrinology (V.A.G.), Ospedale Putignano-Noci, 70017 Bari, Italy
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: G. T’Sjoen, M.D., Department of Endocrinology, Ghent University Hospital, De Pintelaan 185, 9000 Ghent, Belgium. E-mail: guy.tsjoen@ugent.be .

Context: Aging in men is associated with a decline in serum testosterone (T) levels.
Objective: Our objective was to assess whether decreased T in aging might result from increased estradiol (E2) negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion.
Design and Setting: We conducted a comparative intervention study (2004) in the Outpatient Endocrinology Clinic, Ghent University Hospital.
Participants: Participants included healthy young and elderly men (n = 10 vs. 10).
Interventions: We used placebo and letrozole (2.5 mg/d) for 28 d, separated by 2 wk washout.
Main Outcome Measures: We assessed changes in serum levels of free E2, LH, and FSH, free T, SHBG, and gonadotropins response to an iv 2.5-µg GnRH bolus.
Results: As assessed after 28 d of treatment, letrozole lowered E2 by 46% in the young men (P = 0.002) and 62% in the elderly men (P < 0.001). In both age groups, letrozole, but not placebo, significantly increased LH levels (339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively) and T (146 and 99%, respectively) (P value of young vs. elderly was not significant). Under letrozole, peak LH response to GnRH was 152 and 52% increase from baseline in young and older men, respectively (P = 0.01). Conclusions: Aromatase inhibition markedly increased basal LH and T levels and the LH response to GnRH in both young and elderly men. The observation of similar to greater LH responses in the young compared with the elderly does not support the hypothesis that increased restraining of LH secretion by endogenous estrogens is instrumental in age-related decline of Leydig cell function.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/90/10/5717

Do you know the reason the suppression was greater with the elderly? possibly the higher the amount of E2 seen in elderly causes greater suppression?

Meaning that an AAS user might see even more suppression that non-AAS sstudies might indicate?

I'm really just speculating as I have no idea

Originally Posted by DaBeast25

Do you know the reason the suppression was greater with the elderly? possibly the higher the amount of E2 seen in elderly causes greater suppression?

Meaning that an AAS user might see even more suppression that non-AAS sstudies might indicate?

I'm really just speculating as I have no idea

If you refer back to my previous post you will see that Testosterone levels may the the reason for less suppression in males than females. Since T levels decline in older men then it would make sense that suppression is greater.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Letro does inhibit high levels of E2 in postmenopausal females but not in males. You cannot use a female study on AI's and apply it to men. The thread parrots all over the net have taken data from female studies and applied it to males out of ignorance.

As far as why the data is different in men vs women, the reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to the shorter half-life of AI's in males, the lower exposure to the AI, and the higher levels of the aromatase substrates androstenedione (1 ng/ml in young males vs. 0.5 ng/ml in postmenopausal women), particularly the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women (700 ng/dl vs. 20 ng/dl, respectively) This is supported by the 10-d Aromasin study in young males, the suppression of estradiol is weaker (due to the very high levels of the precursor testosterone) than that of estrone (due to androstenedione levels not very different from those in postmenopausal women). A limited suppression of circulating estradiol (50%) has been reported in a similar study in young males treated with 1 mg daily anastrozole, a dose that reduces estradiol by 85% in postmenopausal women.

that definitely does make sense , thanks