Something to help dropping BF....

**aja44** · 06-15-2010, 01:44 PM

Is there anything that you guys/girls use to aid in dropping bodyfat? Something you add to your cycle, pre-contest, or something you would take for a few weeks to get your BF down before your cycle? I am monitoring my intake, tracking on FitDay and running between 500-750 calorie deficit at this time. I want to stay on track for my cycle in early September so wanted something to "help".

Thanks,

**juggernaut** · 06-15-2010, 01:49 PM

How old are you, and have you ever done a cycle before? Years training...Some stats are helpful.

**aja44** · 06-15-2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by juggernaut

How old are you, and have you ever done a cycle before? Years training...Some stats are helpful.

39
No, first cycle in September
2 years back after long absence from injury

**juggernaut** · 06-15-2010, 03:04 PM

Are you doing any anabolics?

**aja44** · 06-15-2010, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Are you doing any anabolics?

First cycle will be:
Cyp250/EQ150 3x's per week for 10 weeks
HCG 250iu's twice per week for 10 weeks
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 10 weeks

PCT:
HCG - 1000iu's EOD for 16 days starting day after last Cyp shot
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 4 weeks from last Cyp shot
Clomid - w1-3 @100mg / w4@50mg
Nolva on hand

**DaBeast25** · 06-15-2010, 04:16 PM

I'm pretty sure your pct start time will be more than 16 days for eq but I could be wrong.

Look up ECA and look up clenbuterol(actually just read the FAQ on it in this forum).

**aja44** · 06-15-2010, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by DaBeast25

I'm pretty sure your pct start time will be more than 16 days for eq but I could be wrong.

Look up ECA and look up clenbuterol(actually just read the FAQ on it in this forum).

DaBeast, thanks your right. Its 21 days for EQ. I will take note. I will also look up ECA and clembuterol. Thanks

**Tyler3295** · 06-15-2010, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by aja44

First cycle will be:
Cyp250/EQ150 3x's per week for 10 weeks
HCG 250iu's twice per week for 10 weeks
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 10 weeks

PCT:
HCG - 1000iu's EOD for 16 days starting day after last Cyp shot
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 4 weeks from last Cyp shot
Clomid - w1-3 @100mg / w4@50mg
Nolva on hand

Why 750mg test/wk for a FIRST cycle?

You could probably get away with several cycles with less test than that.

**juggernaut** · 06-15-2010, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tyler3295

Why 750mg test/wk for a FIRST cycle?

You could probably get away with several cycles with less test than that.

pretty goddamn high!

Also, clen can be extended if it is provided the right stimulus-as in ketofen or benadryl.

**jerseybo** · 06-15-2010, 08:51 PM

I think 500-600 is suffient for Test, no?

**Tyler3295** · 06-15-2010, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by jerseybo

I think 500-600 is suffient for Test, no?

Hell, I know people who have had successful first cycles with 400-450mg test/wk. However, I would recommend 500mg/wk for a first.

**MDR** · 06-15-2010, 09:19 PM

I would agree with the general consensus-500 is plenty-save it for the next run.

**Klutch** · 06-16-2010, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by aja44

First cycle will be:
Cyp250/EQ150 3x's per week for 10 weeks
HCG 250iu's twice per week for 10 weeks
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 10 weeks

PCT:
HCG - 1000iu's EOD for 16 days starting day after last Cyp shot
Anastrozole - .5mg ED for 4 weeks from last Cyp shot
Clomid - w1-3 @100mg / w4@50mg
Nolva on hand

should he run hcg on cycle and post cycle just curious

**aja44** · 06-16-2010, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Klutch

should he run hcg on cycle and post cycle just curious

Hey Klutch,

This was a debate I had on another thread. Although the sticky recommended running it both during and after, many have come back and said to drop the HCG during PCT. My last shot of HCG will be the day after my last test shot and then done.

Recommendations from others I received:

No HCG on PCT
Dropping the Adex to .5mg EOD during cycle.
Running Adex during PCT at .5mg EOD for 14 days
Changed Clomid to 100/50/50/50
Added Nolva at 40/20/20/20/10

G3 · 06-16-2010, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by aja44

Changed Clomid to 100/50/50/50
Added Nolva at 40/20/20/20/10

Aja, is that daily for 4 week doses?

**juggernaut** · 06-16-2010, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by MDR

I would agree with the general consensus-500 is plenty-save it for the next run.

People are constantly highballing first timers on gear. Almost to a point where it's damn near dangerous. If your training is intact along with good dieting, it should be enough to really pack on the gains. AAS is merely a supplement to the training, not the whole enchilada itself.
500 is sufficient for several cycles.

**Built** · 06-16-2010, 07:16 PM

No kidding. More is not necessarily better - not at first. More can just mean sore nipples and bigger man-boobies.

So hot...

**juggernaut** · 06-16-2010, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Built

No kidding. More is not necessarily better - not at first. More can just mean sore nipples and bigger man-boobies.

So hot...

this is the woman who ingrained this into my head and I never forgot. I did the research and it took me a looooong time to find out the answers. I didnt wait until after an incident happened, although after my bout mdrol and tits, I had enough and didnt want to go through that again.

**heavyiron** · 06-16-2010, 08:21 PM

More is better. It is scientifically proven. Up the dose...

**juggernaut** · 06-17-2010, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

More is better. It is scientifically proven. Up the dose...

**WFC2010** · 06-17-2010, 03:54 AM

diet and cardio all year. its key

**juggernaut** · 06-17-2010, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by WFC2010

diet and cardio all year. its key

Absolutely, especially in bulking. Which some people neglect, kind of foolishly.

**WFC2010** · 06-17-2010, 04:07 AM

i do cardio all year 4-5 weeks..also on mass!
when i do cut i do cardio 2 a day like now for summer time

**juggernaut** · 06-17-2010, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by WFC2010

i do cardio all year 4-5 weeks..also on mass!
when i do cut i do cardio 2 a day like now for summer time

the boredom of cardio is what kills me. I enjoy doing Javorek Complexes to train much more effectively. They suck but I can drop 3 lbs in a day if done properly.

**WFC2010** · 06-17-2010, 04:10 AM

yes its killing me too..but i am every day more cut and fats gone line crazy!
and 5iu hgh am before cardio help too + other gear i take

**heavyiron** · 06-17-2010, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

**muscleguys** · 06-17-2010, 01:03 PM

For first cycle I hear the way to go is test only, 500 mg. I did this myself, Put on 20lbs solid, only did it 6 weeks (8 total with clearing), kept most of it, took nolvadex (lower water retention/sides), no sides noticed. Your body will respond really well to first cycle with a lower dose than what the experienced users need. I would save the eq for second cycle, just do the test 500 mg. You'll be very pleased. Starting with such high doses is only going to make your tolerance higher, faster Unnecesarily IMO. Could also do clen/t3 (cytomel) to help cut the fat. T3 you can only take on cycle or wil burn muscle, clen you could do now, alone, pre cycle. Keep your diet clean to avoid additional fat weight. I personally max out about 8-10 weeks and stop seeing gains, may want to shorten to 8 weeks. I'm admittadly conservative with this stuff, but have seen great progress being as safe as possible. Good luck.

**juggernaut** · 06-17-2010, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

Thats all nice and good, but really is it necessary to jump on this with the guy? There's other ways to skin a cat. A lot less chancy as well.
I'd say to do some reading on Javorek Complexes. Theyre a great alternative to HIIT cardio. Built wrote an article on it called Superiority Complexes.
They are a really great way to seriously thrash some fat. I'd also think about using clen.

**Klutch** · 06-17-2010, 03:51 PM

google search tabata for cardio

**Built** · 06-17-2010, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

More is better. It is scientifically proven. Up the dose...

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Thats all nice and good, but really is it necessary to jump on this with the guy? There's other ways to skin a cat. A lot less chancy as well.
I'd say to do some reading on Javorek Complexes. Theyre a great alternative to HIIT cardio. Built wrote an article on it called Superiority Complexes.
They are a really great way to seriously thrash some fat. I'd also think about using clen.

**********************
Now this was an important enough of a point to address. Heavyiron, no disrespect, you know a great deal and you generously offer what your experience and your reading has taught you. You've posted that study up a number of times and I have had numerous opportunities now to read through it.

In this experiment, increases in fat free mass, thigh muscle size and strength were evident, and dose-dependent within the dosing paradigm tested (25mg, 50mg, 125mg, 300mg and 600mg), but there are a few issues that need to be addressed in this study.

For one, these were young men who had not run anabolics before and who, although familiar with weight training, were not trained athletes.

All subjects had their endogenous testosterone completely suppressed before commencing treatment - not a natural baseline for most assisted males in physical culture, outside of an HRT paradigm.

The average height was about 5'10", the average bodyfat was about 13% and the average weight was 150 lbs - these guys were NOT bodybuilders.
They were fed roughly 16 calories per pound, which for most folks is a modest bulking diet, so some gains in mass and fat free mass were to be expected. The guys running basically HRT levels - 125 mg weekly - gained 6.4 lbs of lean mass over twenty weeks; basically just under a pound and a half a month. The guys running 300mg a week gained about 12 lbs of lean in 20 weeks (2.4 lbs a month), and on 600mg, they gained about 19.6 lbs; 3.9 lbs a month, on average, over the five months of treatment.

Undeveloped men like these ought to have been able to gain at least 2 lbs of lean per month on no gear. The guys running 300mg a week gained what could have been gained naturally if they were training and eating properly - worth noting to all you hard-gainers out there who figure gear will make you huge in a heartbeat. It helps, but it's not everything. And dose-dependent gains aside, double the dose doesn't guarantee you'll double your gains.

And although the trend was dose-dependent gains, the difference in gains between individuals was pronounced. Some guys really respond well to lower doses. Some guys need more. You won't know which one you is - until you try.

Dose-dependent gains aside, there was an extremely strong relationship between HDL "good" cholesterol and the amount of testosterone administered: good cholesterol dropped - a lot - at the highest dose. In fact, the authors wrote: "Testosterone doses associated with significant gains in fat-free mass, muscle size, and strength were associated with significant reductions in plasma HDL concentrations. Further studies are needed to determine whether clinically significant anabolic effects of testosterone can be achieved without adversely affecting cardiovascular risk." and went on to discuss the potential benefits of SARMs.

Another noteworthy relationship was between dose and hemoglobin. The authors write: "Testosterone regulates erythropoiesis through its effects on erythropoietin and stem cell proliferation (14, 35, 40). Although modest increments in hemoglobin might be beneficial in androgen-deficient men with chronic illness who are anemic, marked increases in hemoglobin levels could increase the risk of cerebrovascular events (25) and hypertension (42)." This can be a real concern for anyone running a long cycle at anything above modest dosing.

Entirely absent from this study was any measure of serum estrogen or even testosterone-to-estrogen ratio - which, given estrogen's risk impact upon such health outcomes as gynecomastia, breast and prostate cancer and insulin sensitivity, is a real shame.

In short, yes, your gains will go up with your dose. But so will your potential for side effects. Given that most novices will see nice gains from a modest dose, why expose yourself to more risk than necessary?

I'm with you, jugg. Start modest, see how you do, leave yourself some room to increase it for next cycle - IF you need to.

My .02

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