Thread: If You were Over 50

Sounds like you are already active. Thats good. I'm guessing this is your first cycle? If so, Test C at 500mg/wk for 10 wks is all you need. You will see great results from that. You mentioned loosing fat. Do you have any idea what your bf is? Reason being, test will aromatize more easily if your bf is high. Just be sure to stay on top of your ai and you should have no problem.

Here is Swale's protocol for HCG. He is a WELL known HRT doc on the internet.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Thank you for an amazingly detailed protocol. I had not considered HCG, but will add it to the list. If one is on year around HRT therapy, as I am (200ml Test C; 100ml Deca weekly, plius DHEA and Armour thyroid) I assume one continues this after the 10-12 week cycle, correct? This, along with weekly dosages of Anastrolzole (my Doc has me on .5mg tabs, 3 x weekly). This post originated from my interest in Proviron, which I've read is really pecker-friendly, and also Primobolean, which I have read has few side effects. The other steroids I mentioned were of general interest, but do not offer sufficient benefits, i gather, compared to their negatives? Thanks very much for investing the time for such a detailed response.

You have to remember that any steroid will suppress natural test. The HCG will prevent shrinkage.........Some guys will tell you to take it for a month at the dosage recommended then take two weeks off and then restart. Since you are on permenant HRT, I'm not sure if it really matters. Just don't take too much.
I assuming you haven't taken HCG up to this point in HRT. How have things been? Do you get regular bloodtests done?

Originally Posted by dg806

You have to remember that any steroid will suppress natural test. The HCG will prevent shrinkage.........Some guys will tell you to take it for a month at the dosage recommended then take two weeks off and then restart. Since you are on permenant HRT, I'm not sure if it really matters. Just don't take too much.
I assuming you haven't taken HCG up to this point in HRT. How have things been? Do you get regular bloodtests done?

Thanks for asking, HRT has changed my life -- along with this kick-ass machine I bought, a Versaclimber. I get blood tests done every three months, and it tells me a lot about what's going on internally. I have finally come to the realization that health is our personal responsibility, to be pro-active, that time doing research is as important as the time we spend training. This forum has been a great help. Seriously, it's one of two forums I monitor daily, and the only one on which I post. This is an unusual group you have here, a lot of good minds, along with some seriously twisted and funny people.

dg, knows some shit!!!!

For what you want to accomplish, GH and test is all you need.

The GH will take time to see results, but in my opinion it is truly one of the best things science has developed. For your specific goal 2ius AM and an additional 2ius mid afternoon would be fine. You'll really notice a decrease in body composition within 12 weeks or so.

You can just keep on the TRT dose of test as well. You can always bump it up if you want but again, for your goals this will work fine. You really don't need any of those other substances unless your goals change. Keep it simple.

Honestly, the best advice I can give you is it's all in the diet. People told me that for years and I wouldn't listen. After time I finally gave in, hired a pro coach, busted my ass and got down to 5% bf. Best money I ever spent AND I learned more that I could have ever expected. It didn't happen overnight but I was shocked at what a difference a few minor adjustments make. Not to mention my cardio didn't even start until the 10th week of the program and then when it did it was 8 minutes 2 days a week and then 18 minutes the other two.

Bottom line: I learned to check my ego at the door and do exactly what I was told, and it worked. I wish I would have done it years ago.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by dg806

Here is Swale's protocol for HCG. He is a WELL known HRT doc on the internet.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

This is from an actual Dr.? I TOTALLY disagree with what he is saying here.

First off adex can cause estrogen rebound, it's not a suicidal like aromasin, you should be LOWERING the dose during PCT not stopping it alltogether. While the esters are clearing there is still chance for gyno. The reason you lower the dose is to be sure there is enough estrogen for lidibo and mood to be "normal".

The HCG protocol is also questionable at best. Guys suffering from idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism have been PRESCRIBED HCG AT 2000ius DAILY for several weeks ALONG with HMG at 75ius DAILY. I know the guy who was prescribed it, it was me before going on HRT.

He is also stating that too much HCG causes excessive aromatse activity? DUH that's why you use the A/I.

Yep, Swale is on many BB boards on the net. Well known. Just goggle him

I think we are mostly talking normal guys with normal LH function and not with hypogonadism. That would take additional measures to control for sure.

Either way, it's very interesting. But I am curious. When Mods and other pros here turn fifty, what do you think you would choose as a personal cycle? Personal maintenance? In a perfect world, money not a consideration.

ive been using hcg throughout my cycles for a few yrs, at 250 ius and i like it. i stop during bridging but it keeps your nuts in check. it always gives me a surge of aggression, im not subq i dont know why it dont work subq as well as im, maybe just in my head. thats a good possibility.

Originally Posted by 2tomlinson

Either way, it's very interesting. But I am curious. When Mods and other pros here turn fifty, what do you think you would choose as a personal cycle? Personal maintenance? In a perfect world, money not a consideration.

In a perfect world?

BULKING:
Test, NPP, GH - maybe dbol or anadrol after 8 weeks. Nothing else.

MAINTAINING:
Test, GH - Nothing else.

Cutting:
Test, GH, primo, MAYBE high dose anavar at end of run, maybe.

I'm in my late 30's and this is all I use. It works for me. You can experiment with other AAS, but I was a human lab rat for years and I really think more is not better. Keep it simple and you will get to where you want to be.

Originally Posted by dg806

I think we are mostly talking normal guys with normal LH function and not with hypogonadism. That would take additional measures to control for sure.

Yes, I agree with you. I still don't understand his theory on the A/I use during PCT, or lack there of? Oh well.

Good to see you back up and running. Glad to hear you're doing well.

I think you read it wrong. He advises to use it during cycle and absolutely not during pct??
Edit.....I see where you stated the lack thereof...........Yes clearing esters may cause some aromatization. I think this was written awhile back before other ai's became popular. I agree something like aromasin would be a better choice.

Originally Posted by 2tomlinson

Either way, it's very interesting. But I am curious. When Mods and other pros here turn fifty, what do you think you would choose as a personal cycle? Personal maintenance? In a perfect world, money not a consideration.

I'll be 47 in Nov. Not too far behind you. Not looking to be a giant.....just test would be fine for me. Simple with few sides and things to worry about as you get older and health means more. I have a family history of heart disease and diabetes so I have to be careful. I have high bp also.

Originally Posted by dg806

I'll be 47 in Nov. Not too far behind you. Not looking to be a giant.....just test would be fine for me. Simple with few sides and things to worry about as you get older and health means more. I have a family history of heart disease and diabetes so I have to be careful. I have high bp also.

Man, age 50 is when I wish I'd have started. My HRT Doc says thyroid is major issue and has me on Armour thyroid, which I gather is hard to get. Adding Testosterone was a huge difference. Our bodies change so gradually as we age, we really don't realize how shitty we feel compared to how we once felt. Most striking thing I've learned is that all blood tests have a "norm" that declines proportionally with age, which is bullshit. You guys are the pros at this and I'll guarantee that, if you find a business niche in HRT, there is a lot of good to be done, and a ton of money to be made, because Baby Boomers are the largest, most monied demographic in the US. We will fucking wait in line, bucks in hand, to work with someone who is forward thinking and knows his/her biz.

Originally Posted by 2tomlinson

Man, age 50 is when I wish I'd have started. My HRT Doc says thyroid is major issue and has me on Armour thyroid, which I gather is hard to get. Adding Testosterone was a huge difference. Our bodies change so gradually as we age, we really don't realize how shitty we feel compared to how we once felt. Most striking thing I've learned is that all blood tests have a "norm" that declines proportionally with age, which is bullshit. You guys are the pros at this and I'll guarantee that, if you find a business niche in HRT, there is a lot of good to be done, and a ton of money to be made, because Baby Boomers are the largest, most monied demographic in the US. We will fucking wait in line, bucks in hand, to work with someone who is forward thinking and knows his/her biz.

Yep, well only if I went to school to be a doctor. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20. On the other hand, my brothers wife is a doc and she specializes in sports med.

Originally Posted by dg806

Yep, well only if I went to school to be a doctor. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20. On the other hand, my brothers wife is a doc and she specializes in sports med.

You miss my point. As experts on bodybuilding, with your knowledge of steroids, HGH, pheromones, hormones, which are not made available to the general populace, the Mods here could do a great deal of good (and also make a deserved amount of money) if you hooked-up with an open-minded, forward thinking MD or DO, and founded your own business. HRT clinics are the future. Those available now are few and far between.

Originally Posted by 2tomlinson

You miss my point. As experts on bodybuilding, with your knowledge of steroids, HGH, pheromones, hormones, which are not made available to the general populace, the Mods here could do a great deal of good (and also make a deserved amount of money) if you hooked-up with an open-minded, forward thinking MD or DO, and founded your own business. HRT clinics are the future. Those available now are few and far between.

Maybe I should have expanded my comment.......how would you think an HRT doc would percieve one of us working with them? Not very well I would venture to guess. I could see we would be thought of as a know-it-all wannabe. I agree that most hrt docs don't know all they should. Most will not prescribe ai's to keep estrogen in control which is very important.
I consider myself far from an expert. Never will be. I do take pride in what I have learned, but still learn everyday.
Although I agree that HRT clinincs are the future, as men have a great deal to gain from them with quality of life, there is still a stigma associated with them and steroids, and this has to be overcome first.

Originally Posted by dg806

maybe i should have expanded my comment.......how would you think an hrt doc would percieve one of us working with them? Not very well i would venture to guess. I could see we would be thought of as a know-it-all wannabe. I agree that most hrt docs don't know all they should. Most will not prescribe ai's to keep estrogen in control which is very important.
i consider myself far from an expert. Never will be. I do take pride in what i have learned, but still learn everyday.
although i agree that hrt clinincs are the future, as men have a great deal to gain from them with quality of life, there is still a stigma associated with them and steroids, and this has to be overcome first.

+1