Thread: How to get the max out of my 1st cycle?

Originally Posted by ROID

Do you know of any studies that have been done on this ?

I heard low-dose deca was good for collagen synthesis . . . just sayin'

I've read people claiming both are.

I'm pretty sure they are ; I just wanna know if there are studies backing this up

Originally Posted by ROID

Do you know of any studies that have been done on this ?

Originally Posted by TheCapt'n

I heard low-dose deca was good for collagen synthesis . . . just sayin'

Originally Posted by ROID

I've read people claiming both are.

I'm pretty sure they are ; I just wanna know if there are studies backing this up

I had/have a rotator cuff injury and short off adding HGH i threw in the kitchen sink in to a recovery stack so that i wouldnt have to abandon my cycle.

Not so sure about the Deca claims, lubes you up and protects the joints but any studies that suggest good for collegen synthesis i would be very interested in seeing

As to EQ yes i did a lot of research and ill add it in here and my log when i have time... I got it all in a file so shudnt be to much trouble

This is what i used

VAR 100mg ED
Alflutop 1cc ED 21 days
EQ 300mg EW
Cissus
Animal Flex
Ghenerate @ I-GH-1

Ill expand on all if u guys are interested ?

Originally Posted by superted

I had/have a rotator cuff injury and short off adding HGH i threw in the kitchen sink in to a recovery stack so that i wouldnt have to abandon my cycle.

Not so sure about the Deca claims, lubes you up and protects the joints but any studies that suggest good for collegen synthesis i would be very interested in seeing

As to EQ yes i did a lot of research and ill add it in here and my log when i have time... I got it all in a file so shudnt be to much trouble

This is what i used

VAR 100mg ED
Alflutop 1cc ED 21 days
EQ 300mg EW
Cissus
Animal Flex
Ghenerate @ I-GH-1

Ill expand on all if u guys are interested ?

please. I have injuries as well

Originally Posted by ROID

please. I have injuries as well

ok dont want to hijack this thread so i just made a detailed post here

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/ge...ictures-3.html

Hope this helps

Just for the record, four weeks ago I had a back injury that I'm all too familiar with and the pain usually lasts six weeks however this time it cleared up in 2.5 weeks and I feel no pain at all which is unusual. I'm not sure whether this is a coincidence or whether the gears helped recovery.

I'll start deadlifting again in 4 days time but with high reps lower weight and see how I pull up the next morning.

You're not hijacking the thread superted, all good info is welcome.

Originally Posted by bigsalad22

you would ban someone for disagreeing with a mod? really? i'm just curious...why would you do that?

No, I wouldn't and I don't think that's what he was saying. The issue isn't that he was disagreeing, it is the fact that he contiunes to act in a matter that is childish at best (this isn't the first, second or third time that this type of thing has happened), then when a few people call him out he just seems to vanish from a thread and never to return.

Personally, I think what makes a thread good is different opinions, there is not always a "one way is right" answer.

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

Just for the record, four weeks ago I had a back injury that I'm all too familiar with and the pain usually lasts six weeks however this time it cleared up in 2.5 weeks and I feel no pain at all which is unusual. I'm not sure whether this is a coincidence or whether the gears helped recovery.

I'll start deadlifting again in 4 days time but with high reps lower weight and see how I pull up the next morning.

You're not hijacking the thread superted, all good info is welcome.

Ok here goes

Ok summed up my research on my recovery stack at the request of several members

This is all from my log over at AM

Ghenerate @ I-GH-1 by LG Sciences

The reports from our first clinical study areback and verify what hundreds of users have reported already- elevated GH levels and off the hook recovery and sleep! In fact, from the combination of GHenerate and I-GH-1, growth hormone was increased by up to 5834% in this study! We are so happy with the results that we are going to pick three lucky applicants here on AM to log the stack!

GHenerate is the only GH boosting product on the market that includes puerarin an amazing nutrient which studies have shown can provide a 520% increase in growth hormone release (1) by stimulating the GHRH receptor! It is also the only product to include Marus Alba, whose extract contains a peptide which mimics the effect of GHRP and it's natural analog Ghrelin (2). These new GH boosting superstars, along with I-GH-1 are sure to give you huge pumps, improved recovery, great sleep and the many benefits of boosted GH levels! Together, the effects of Generate and IGH1 in our clinical study were increases in growth hormone of up to 5834%



Can Anavar help with a rotator cuff injury?

This is from another thread im following on another board and i would be interested in any input you may have on the issue

The short answer is YES anavar is well studied for enhanced wound healing/tissue repair. The "rotator cuff" is basically a group of muscles and tendons... ie tissue.

Oxandrolone causes:
1) backdoor increase in GH
2) increased collagen and elastin syntyhesis (repair the tendon portion)
3) increased nitrogen retention (strengthen the muscle portion)

Search on oxandrolone and collagen elastin and you'll pull up a boatload of studies. Its actually an indicated use if I recall. (iow, doc can prescribe for slow wound healing)

This is quite common in Europe

The "joint" part is a lube issue mostly, and var wont help there. u can add otc joint formulas (chondroiten/collagen II/hyaluronic acid/etc) and/or nandrolones (deca/npp which increase synovial fluid) for a rotator cuff stack




A Deeper look into Anavar

Continued from my last post # 410

it's NOT an indicated use for oxandrin (US); But there have been human studies on var for wound healing. Many (but not all) have been on burn victims which complicates generalized conclusions .

here's an example from a journal survey of studies:

Sex Hormones and Wound Healing
VOLUME: 18 PUBLICATION DATE: Jan 01 2006

Issue: 1
author:
Desiree May Oh, MD, and Tania J. Phillips, MD
Sex Hormones and Wound Healing | WOUNDS



In a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled study on the effects of the testosterone analog oxandrolone on wound healing, the drug was administered to 11 patients at a dose of 20 mg/day starting between Days 2 and 3 after severe burn injury. Wound healing time of standardized donor sites was measured. The oxandrolone-treated patients took a significantly shorter time to heal compared to the placebo group (9 ± 2 days versus 13 ± 3 days).44 A similarly designed study comparing placebo, oxandrolone, and another anabolic agent, human growth hormone (HGH), yielded similar results. The complete healing time of a standardized donor site decreased from the control value of 14 ± 2 days to 10 ± 3 days for HGH and 10 ± 2 days for oxandrolone.45 It is postulated that since oxandrolone is an anabolic steroid, it might have different effects on wound healing in comparison to classic androgens, such as testosterone and dihydrotestosterone.4

44. Demling RH, Orgill DP. The anticatabolic and wound healing effects of the testosterone analog oxandrolone after severe burn injury. J Crit Care. 2000;15(1):12–17.45. Demling RH. Comparison of the anabolic effects and complications of human growth hormone and the testosterone analog, oxandrolone, after severe burn injury. Burns. 1999;25(3):215–221.

----

Interesting that in the second study mentioned above, Oxandrolone had about the same improvement as HGH for wound healing.



A Deeper look into Anavar

Continued from my last post # 410 and # 411

rotator cuff = muscle tendon joint.
. muscle strengthened by Var's increased nitrogen retention/protein synthesis
. tendon is mostly structural collagen. so if Var increases collagen synthesis, it would help repair tendon, yes?

the studies above (and below which is not burn related) show that Var increases collagen synthesis, speeds wound healing.


Here's an example of a study re oxandrolone and collagen synthesis.

======================

The Influence of the Anabolic Agent, Oxandrolone, Upon the Expression of Procollagen Types I and III mRNA in Human Fibroblasts Cultured on Collagen or Plastic

G.M. Allison, BS; H. Levinson, MD; T. Kramer, MD; D.R. Mackay, MD and H.P. Ehrlich, PhD

Abstract & Introduction
Abstract

The repair process entails the reestablishment of a connective tissue matrix, a scar, where collagen is the major matrix component. Collagen deposition is critical for the initial gains in wound breaking strength and makes up the extracellular matrix of granulation tissue. The systemic administration of anabolic steroid reportedly enhances wound repair through the expansion of collagen synthesis and deposition. Do human dermal fibroblasts receiving an anabolic steroid, oxandrolone, increase their expression of procollagen mRNA? Human dermal fibroblasts were grown on collagen-coated or uncoated plastic dishes in the presence of ascorbic acid to optimize collagen processing. By Northern Blot analysis, fibroblasts growing on collagen expressed less types I and III procollagen mRNA, reduced by 49 percent and 91 percent respectively, compared to fibroblasts growing on plastic. Fibroblasts growing on plastic and receiving oxandrolone (3g/mL) showed a minimal change in procollagen mRNA expression. However, oxandrolone stimulated expression of type III procollagen mRNA 11-fold and type I procollagen mRNA doubled in fibroblasts maintained on collagen, relative to control fibroblasts maintained on collagen. A collagen substrate inhibits types I and III procollagen mRNA expression in fibroblasts. The anabolic steroid, oxandrolone, antagonizes such collagen substrate inhibition of procollagen mRNA expression, stimulating procollagen mRNA expression to levels of fibroblasts growing on plastic. These findings suggest that oxandrolone may directly enhance wound healing by increasing the expression of procollagen mRNA in fibroblasts associated with a collagen matrix analogous to the healing wound.


Aflutop for reversing joint injury

Alflutop is a natural, injectable formula that is reported to be more effective than corticosteroid injections, as it not only reduces inflamation, but encourages repair and regeneration of cartilage and connective tissue. Alflutop has proven effective in clinical trials in degenerative joint disorders (bursitis, tendonitis, and arthritis). Comparable in effect, though different in formula from Adequan, Alflutop is reported to be a miracle drug for joint injuries. Alflutop is manufactured by BIOTEHNOS S.A. Romania, and is not approved by the FDA.

Description:
Each 1ml ampule of Alflutop contains 10 mg sea fish bioactive concentrate (amino acids, low molecular mass peptides, mucopolysaccharides, trace elements: Na, K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Cu, Zn), and maximum 5mg/100ml phenol as preservative.

How it works:
Alflutop falls into the group of chondroprotective products having anti-hyaluronidase, anti-inflammatory and analgesic action. Alflutop:
inhibits hyaluronidase excess;
restores chondrocytes homeostasis in damaged tissues;
stimulates regenerative processes at cartilage level;
adjusts synovial fluid synthesis;
stimulates superoxide dismutase;
inhibits occurrence of superoxide free radicals.
Dosing:
Intramuscular (IM) injection of 1 amp every day for 3 weeks, for a 21 day cycle, which can be followed up 2 months later. Intra-articular (IA) injection has also shown effective in later-stage clinical trials. 1-2 amps into the joint, E3D for 21 days.
If it's all the same, I think I'd go for the IM route. Not too big a fan of the prospect of stabbing through some cartilage or tendons, personally. There is probably little benefit, if any, to a local IM injection (close proximity to the injured joint), so I would skip it. You probably stand to do more harm than good by "threading the needle", so to speak, into your injured joint.

Alflutop has an active life of approximately 24-36 hours. The dosing protocols above are just guidelines, and the bottom line is you should continue treatment as long as necessary, if need be. There are no indications of toxicity, or any other negative side effects from Alflutop.

Clinical Trial Results:
The clinical trials have confirmed the efficacy of Alflutop in degenerative articular, post-traumatic pathology and abarticular rheumatism:
extremely few adverse reactions;
lack of major complications;
well tolerated, including the patients sufferring from gastrointestinal, cardiovascular and metabolic diseases; and

a favourable ratio of costs and clinical efficacy.
The clinical trials showed the therapeutical effect of Alflutop in the treatment of periarthritis, spondiloarthrosis, spinal disc injuries, ankylopoietic spondilitis, Reiter syndrome, and rheumatoid polyarthritis.

References:
1. Svetlova MS, Ignat'ev VK. [Use of alflutop in the treatment of patients with osteoarthrosis] Klin Med (Mosk). 2004;82(6):52-5.
2. Noskov SM, Fetelego OI, Krasivina IG, Dolgova LN. [Alflutop in local therapy of shoulder periarthritis] Ter Arkh. 2005;77(8):57-60.
3. Taran AI, Puzanova OG, Lapenko OIe, Sol's'kyi VI, Samoilova SM. [Experience gained with the use of local administration of medicinal remedies in rheumatic diseases] Lik Sprava. 2001 Sep-Dec;(5-6):182-5.

1. Svetlova MS, Ignat'ev VK
[Use of alflutop in the treatment of patients with osteoarthrosis]
Klin Med (Mosk). 2004;82(6):52-5. Russian.
PMID: 15344692 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The efficiency of alflutop was studied in patients with osteoarthrosis (OA) of the knee or hip joints. The examinees (n = 24) received alflutop only intramuscularly (in coxarthrosis) or intramuscularly in combination with the intraarticular injection of the agent (in knee osteoarthrosis). Physical examinations were made in control periods: before and immediately, 3, 6, and 12 months after treatment. Arthrosonography was used as an objective method for controlling the efficacy of the drug. The studies have demonstrated that alflutop substantially relieves pain, improves the function of the diseased joints in patients with OA. Arthrosonography has shown that the drug exerts an antiinflammatory effect, retards the progression of a pathological process in the joint. Alflutop has been found to be more effective in knee OA than in hip OA, which is determined by that its combined use regimen may be used in knee OA. The necessity and high efficiency of repeated courses of alflutop therapy are shown.
PMID: 15344692 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


2. Noskov SM, Fetelego OI, Krasivina IG, Dolgova LN.
[Alflutop in local therapy of shoulder periarthritis]
Ter Arkh. 2005;77(8):57-60. Russian.
PMID: 16206607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

AIM: To study efficacy of a compound biological preparation alflutop in local therapy of shoulder periarthritis (SP), to compare its efficacy with that of periarticular diprospan. MATERIAL AND METHODS: The trial included 54 patients with SP. Clinical SP forms consisted of subacromial and subdeltoid bursitis (SSB) (42.6%), tendinitis (57.4%). Acute disease was diagnosed in 35.2% patients, chronic one--in 64.8%. Alflutop and diprospan were injected periarticularly. The patients were divided into three groups. Patients of group 1 (n = 15) received alflutop monotherapy (2 ml, 5 injections). Group 2 (n = 24) received a single injection of diprospan (7 mg). Group 3 (n = 15) patients were given combined treatment: a single injection (7 mg) of diprospan followed by alflutop infiltrations (2 mg, 5 injections). The efficacy of the treatment was judged by some score clinical parameters, dynamometrical findings, SDQ score set, thermographic and ultrasonic signs of periarticular inflammation. RESULTS: A course of periarticular alflutop infiltrations in SP demonstrated the same efficacy as a single dose diprospan. However, in acute SP with bursitis diprospan produced a significantly better results while alflutop was better in chronic SP with tendinitis. Diprospan combination with alflutop produced the highest therapeutic effect irrespective of the disease course and clinical SP course. CONCLUSION: Local administration of alflutop in SP as monotherapy alternative to glucocorticosteroids or in combination with diprospan is effective. A differentiated approach allowing for a clinical form and course of SP raises therapeutic efficacy noticeably.
PMID: 16206607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


3. Taran AI, Puzanova OG, Lapenko OIe, Sol's'kyi VI, Samoilova SM.
[Experience gained with the use of local administration of medicinal remedies in rheumatic diseases]
Lik Sprava. 2001 Sep-Dec;(5-6):182-5. Ukrainian.
PMID: 11881370 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In the article, errors that are frequently encountered in dealing with rheumatic diseases are analysed together with the experience gained by the authors themselves with the management of 380 patients using local injections of corticosteroids (diprospan) and chondroprotectors (alflutop). The employment of local injection therapy has been shown to shorten considerably the patient's hospital stay, to improve the quality of life of the patients, with them being practically free from ill effects and complications.
PMID: 11881370 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.


Actual real deal HGH would have been the next step but i tried this
Ghenerate @ I-GH-1 by LG Sciences


There are plenty more studies but i thought this pretty much summed thing up

Im sure you are all aware of Cissus so wont bother with that, should be a staple in any BB Powerlifters regimen

Animal Flex is the best joint supplement that ive used you can google that for yourself

Originally Posted by BillHicksFan

As a matter of fact I've researched this cycle every single day for months until I'd just about read every tren/test thread on the net. You've automatically assumed I'm some stupid kid who thinks that juice will be all I need to achieve my goals when in reality I have been training hard and eating right for years. This is the cycle I chose and I have no regrets. It hasn't been the animal that I expected it to be and I am enjoying it.

If you had read through the thread regarding my experiences with these compounds you would realise how pointless and irrelevant your post was.

well then sorry stupid choice for first cycle. and i still feel the same way.

and captin thanx for the neg-rep and STFU comment