Thread: Pct and hcg

Popular thought is to use HCG during the cycle, and while the ester clears the system, then run Clomid for PCT. Many run Aromisin throughout, including PCT. No Nolva, and no HCG during PCT.

+1^



/v

HCG has to be the drug with the most conflicting information on how to dose it correctly.

I'm still confused on what will trigger LH desensitization with HCG. Here it says it should only be used for 3 weeks. Other say it should be ran the entire cycle. Some recommend high dosages while other recommend 250iu's 2x a week. Some studies report anything over 500ui's a day can lead to desensitization and/or wasting of the HCG.

I'm still confused on this subject and I don't believe it will ever be cleared up 100% due to peoples opinions.

^^^^that's my whole point. I was hoping for more responses and personal experience, both running it during and after cycle, as suggested in the article, not just "popular opinion".

250 ius 2X per week should be fine. By popular thought, I was just relating what many people, including myself, believe gives the most effective results. Good luck.

Originally Posted by VictorZ06

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/v

+2

Hcg at low dose during simply to keep the testes from shutting down, and then bumped up to say 1000iu a day for 5 days as the ester clears. This is to give the testes a boost in test production. Then start clomid and aromasin(should be used during as well) to get hypthalomous and pituitary going. The use of aromasin is important as it reduces estrogenand estrogen is 200x more supressive than testosterone. It is also the only one that will not cause a rebound in estrogen once discontinued.

Originally Posted by Dragon_MD

+2

Hcg at low dose during simply to keep the testes from shutting down, and then bumped up to say 1000iu a day for 5 days as the ester clears. This is to give the testes a boost in test production. Then start clomid and aromasin(should be used during as well) to get hypthalomous and pituitary going. The use of aromasin is important as it reduces estrogenand estrogen is 200x more supressive than testosterone. It is also the only one that will not cause a rebound in estrogen once discontinued.

Nice job walking through the reasoning behind everything. Bumping up the hcg while the ester clears makes a lot of sense to me,too. Good stuff.

dont mean to high jack, just wanted to say this cleared something up for me. i kept getting confused on whether i wanted to use aromasin or arimidex during my cycle. LOTS of knowledge on this board!!!

that article and information posted in the stickies is out of date. We need to redo it

very good info on hcg and pct, thanks

Originally Posted by Dragon_MD

+2

Hcg at low dose during simply to keep the testes from shutting down, and then bumped up to say 1000iu a day for 5 days as the ester clears. This is to give the testes a boost in test production. Then start clomid and aromasin(should be used during as well) to get hypthalomous and pituitary going. The use of aromasin is important as it reduces estrogenand estrogen is 200x more supressive than testosterone. It is also the only one that will not cause a rebound in estrogen once discontinued.

That protocal/dosage seems to make the most sense. THANKS

Years of scientific research, and trail and error bro.

Originally Posted by underscore

HCG has to be the drug with the most conflicting information on how to dose it correctly.

I'm still confused on what will trigger LH desensitization with HCG. Here it says it should only be used for 3 weeks. Other say it should be ran the entire cycle. Some recommend high dosages while other recommend 250iu's 2x a week. Some studies report anything over 500ui's a day can lead to desensitization and/or wasting of the HCG.

I'm still confused on this subject and I don't believe it will ever be cleared up 100% due to peoples opinions.

It is not confusing at all. We know for a fact that a man on Testosterone needs about 300iu HCG EOD to maintain ITT levels. This is about 1,050iu HCG weekly or 525iu HCG twice per week. We also know for a fact that HCG is dose dependant so the more you use the more it works in healthy men.


Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

full study;
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595

^^Does this mean i am wasting my HCG just using only 250iu 2x week? should i be using double? thought i had it all sorted y'know

R

Originally Posted by roastchicken

^^Does this mean i am wasting my HCG just using only 250iu 2x week? should i be using double? thought i had it all sorted y'know

R

Yup, you need 500iu HCG twice per week minimum. If you are unresponsive or on high doses of steroids you may shoot 500iu 3 times weekly.

7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.

Does this mean that in the 250iu group ITT levels were kept ALMOST at what they were pre-cycle, post-cycle - would this have still combatted testicular atrophy

and

Would the 500iu group's ITT levels far exceeded production pre-cycle and is this neccessary?

Hope i am making myself clear

ROAST

Originally Posted by roastchicken

7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.

Does this mean that in the 250iu group ITT levels were kept ALMOST at what they were pre-cycle, post-cycle - would this have still combatted testicular atrophy

and

Would the 500iu group's ITT levels far exceeded production pre-cycle and is this neccessary?

Hope i am making myself clear

ROAST

The 250iu group administered HCG EOD and was still 7% below baseline ITT. In other words their testicles were not producing testosterone quite as much as off cycle.

The 500iu EOD group did exceed natty production of ITT by 26%. This is how it was determined that HCG is dose dependant even when administering Testosterone. 26% more natty ITT is not much.

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Yup, you need 500iu HCG twice per week minimum. If you are unresponsive or on high doses of steroids you may shoot 500iu 3 times weekly.

This is very interesting information. Looks like I need to raise my HCG doses on my next cycle. Thank you for posting this, Heavyiron. Never too old to learn around here, I guess! Good stuff.