Thread: Comment new cycle

You have almost 600 posts, and yet you throw a crazy ass cycle out there...whats up with that? You have bulkers, with cutters....nolva with 19 nors. You only really need 3 compounds at a time. Looks like you are try ing to start a bulk and end with a cut....what is going on.?

i would drop the deca. but if you want to run them both together you need lower the dosage of the deca and tren. both together should not be more than 600mgs. anymore will lead you to become a milk maid. and like pyes siad you got nolva with tren, not a good mix. i would run test e 500mgs week 1-4, 750mgs 5-8 week, 1000mgs 9-12 weeks. would better "just in case you get sides". i would drop the anavar. arimidex dosage is to high , start with .5mg ,. i like to run dbol for 4 weeks at the beginning and at the end of a long cycle. this cycle is complicated and has to much different gear, it will be difficult mixing long easter with short, either do all long or short. are you going pro?

Originally Posted by pyes

You have almost 600 posts, and yet you throw a crazy ass cycle out there...whats up with that? You have bulkers, with cutters....nolva with 19 nors. You only really need 3 compounds at a time. Looks like you are try ing to start a bulk and end with a cut....what is going on.?

I see that priapis posted several studies attempting to support his claim that tamoxifen (nolva) upregulates the progesterone receptor (PgR) in breast tissue. The first two studies he posted looked at cancerous breast tumors (i.e. not normal breast tissue). The next two studies he posted (here and here) looked at the effect in en***etrial tissue (the uterus).

First, let's address the latter, en***etrial tissue: I've talked about that here. The gist is that it's no surprise tamoxifen upregulates the PgR in the uterus, where 1) there is high sensitivity to estrogen and *especially* where 2) tamoxifen is known to act as an estrogen receptor agonist (acting like estrogen, not blocking it). This is not the case in normal breast tissue. I argue that Eric Potratz is an idiot (and he is) for extrapolating from en***etrial tissue in women to healthy breast tissue in men, without even mentioning (or being aware of) the differential tissue effects. He's misleading people about the dangers of tamoxifen so he can sell a competing product.

Second, let's address the effects in breast cancer tissue: My position is that the effect on PgR expression is not uniform, though there is often a statistically significant increase. If we look at the full text of the first study that priapi posted, we see in table 2 that 24% the tamoxifen group had down-regulation of the PgR, 26% had no change, and 50% showed up-regulation. In contrast, this study found what they described as "a modest decline" in PgR levels in all three histologies they tested with tamoxifen treatment, though it failed to achieve statistical significance (p values of .19, .82, and .15).

But most importantly, what do we see in normal, healthy breast tissue? Before I address that, note that earlier in this thread priapis said that I have "an unsupported/undocumented opinion that contradicts science, based on an incorrect reading of some other guys article." He says that the studies above (in cancer tissue and en***etrial tissue) "and many more" show that my opinion is incorrect. He ends his post arguing that "the fact of upregulation in BREAST TISSUE is so well established..."

priapis couldn't be more wrong. He fails to understand that there is a significant difference between cancerous breast tumors and normal breast tissue. This study looked at ER and PgR expression in normal breast tissue (i.e. not cancer tissue) in tamoxifen treated women. They found that tamoxifen "shows no stimulatory activity on either PgR levels, a well known oestrogen regulated protein... or the important parameter of cell proliferation (Figure 2)." "In conclusion, the data presented do not show any adverse effects of tamoxifen on normal breast tissue."

This finding was confirmed in the most extensive study that I've seen looking at the effects of tamoxifen in normal breast tissue, which was published in 2003. This quote couldn't be any more relevant or explicit. Read it and reread it:Here are images showing the effect of different doses of tamoxifen on the level of estrogen receptors (ER, on the left) and progesterone receptors (PR, on the right) in normal breast tissue:


These results in normal breast tissue are in perfect accordance with my statement that "There is no evidence showing that tamoxifen upregulates the progesterone receptor in the breast (which is what the worry is all about). It shows it does the opposite." priapis is demonstrating his ignorance when he says that this statement "contradicts science." In fact, it's based on the science (and the most relevant science at that).

I stand by my argument that "Nolvadex will not make progesterone related gyno worse. It will help prevent it." (Unless, of course, your breast tissue is a uterus or a cancer )



Join Date: Dec 2009
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Progesterone Gyno
Not mine, but a good read none the less.


I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

Now Tren and Deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to testosterone but I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is ***inant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.

Also, basically from what I've read on the matter, prolactin or progesterone will not cause gyno unless there is excess estrogen that has been aromatized in the body and already beginning the stages of gyno. It just adds on to the problem and brings with it lactation. Having said that, if you are on nonaromatizing compounds along with tren, you should not get gyno. If you are on winny (and anti-progestagenic) you will not get gyno. If you are on aromatizing compounds and you supplement with anti-e's and AI, you should not get gyno because your estrogen level will be in check therefore not causing excess estrogen for the progesterone to team up with. Its all starting to make a little more sense to me now. If any of you have any conflicting or additional information to this topic, please post it. I am in the process of adding the Tren E back in my cycle as soon as I feel comfortable that I have my gyno in check.

And i have another read of this kind...

Originally Posted by pyes

You have almost 600 posts, and yet you throw a crazy ass cycle out there...whats up with that? You have bulkers, with cutters....nolva with 19 nors. You only really need 3 compounds at a time. Looks like you are try ing to start a bulk and end with a cut....what is going on.?

I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

Now Tren and Deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to testosterone but I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is ***inant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.

Also, basically from what I've read on the matter, prolactin or progesterone will not cause gyno unless there is excess estrogen that has been aromatized in the body and already beginning the stages of gyno. It just adds on to the problem and brings with it lactation. Having said that, if you are on nonaromatizing compounds along with tren, you should not get gyno. If you are on winny (and anti-progestagenic) you will not get gyno. If you are on aromatizing compounds and you supplement with anti-e's and AI, you should not get gyno because your estrogen level will be in check therefore not causing excess estrogen for the progesterone to team up with. Its all starting to make a little more sense to me now. If any of you have any conflicting or additional information to this topic, please post it. I am in the process of adding the Tren E back in my cycle as soon as I feel comfortable that I have my gyno in check.

So pyes would you please shut the fuck up about some opinions on nolva and 19-Nors based on bro science and get some education!!!A little advice,stop bashing peoples with close to 600 posts...

I didn't like the Eq in my previous cycle(insatiable cravingsd) and some of my friends got impressive results combining deca and tren,will be first-time user of Mast and wan't to experiment with this compound...

I'm out

Originally Posted by SUPERFLY1234

i would drop the deca. but if you want to run them both together you need lower the dosage of the deca and tren. both together should not be more than 600mgs. anymore will lead you to become a milk maid. and like pyes siad you got nolva with tren, not a good mix. i would run test e 500mgs week 1-4, 750mgs 5-8 week, 1000mgs 9-12 weeks. would better "just in case you get sides". i would drop the anavar. arimidex dosage is to high , start with .5mg ,. i like to run dbol for 4 weeks at the beginning and at the end of a long cycle. this cycle is complicated and has to much different gear, it will be difficult mixing long easter with short, either do all long or short. are you going pro?

Would like to...Will begin with regional shows,and btw, i had no problems whatsoever mixing long and short esthers and will ever do so cause i don't want to mess with tren E!!!

Im learing all the time so i cant comment on most as it sounds good, the only thing is that i have been told never to mix deca and tren, any chance you can explain in laymans terms why mixing tren and deca would be a good thing and why......just for me as im very interested in the mix.
Cheers mate.

I would keep the Deca at eight weeks. Keep the Test and D-bol, along with the A/I and HCG, and dump the rest. You can kick off with the D-bol. After dumping the Deca at eight weeks, you can ramp up the Test a bit. Personally, I'd use Prami rather than caber, but that's just a personal preference. Just my opinion, take it for whatever it's worth. Good luck with your cycle.

Originally Posted by SUPERFLY1234

i would drop the deca. but if you want to run them both together you need lower the dosage of the deca and tren. both together should not be more than 600mgs. anymore will lead you to become a milk maid. and like pyes siad you got nolva with tren, not a good mix. i would run test e 500mgs week 1-4, 750mgs 5-8 week, 1000mgs 9-12 weeks. would better "just in case you get sides". i would drop the anavar. arimidex dosage is to high , start with .5mg ,. i like to run dbol for 4 weeks at the beginning and at the end of a long cycle. this cycle is complicated and has to much different gear, it will be difficult mixing long easter with short, either do all long or short. are you going pro?

I would like to know what is the reason why you advice taking no more of 600mg of 19-Nors???Is there any logical reason behind it?If not,i've heard those kind of opinions about keeping test dose higher than 19-Nors but the truth is than people are just doing so because of negative impact of the latest on libido...The dose an individual can handle differs from one to another but the fact is there's no such thing as an equation that will give you the answer on how many mg test ew you should take for a quantity of 19-Nors.I already did cycle with that dose of tren ace with no sides,and 300mg of deca won't do much for you except to keep your joints lubricated,most of the experienced deca users i know says 600mg is a reasonable dose for optimal results!

that masteron hurts like a muther

Will give news about it,usually injectables from my boy are smooth and painless,but i never did try his masteron nor his test prop,but the t400 was ok!

ur deca (600mgs)+ tren(650mgs) = more than ur weekly test (100mgs). that could be a little prob for u to keep a hard on if get one at all couldn't it. just from what i've read, have no personal experience with either but am planning to use both in the new year so im still readin up.

as for ur tren with the nolva i wouldn't be to worried about it interferring as the tren a has a short half life and would be clear before pct even starts. its the deca i'd be a little worried about but after the info u have posted i'd like to know how it stands with anyone with personal experience??

adex is high and could start at .25 ed imo. and unless preping for comp drop the masteron and anavar with the amount of tren ur planing on having sort ur diet out by end and u'll be plenty lean enough. just a thought

Fred unfortunetly that cycle is far beyond what I have ever chosen to do at one time. I know you read a lot and have good guidance and with your size can handle much more than a average person. But I did notice one thing that I would change. For the dosages you are talking about I feel your clomid in PCT is way light. With that much stuff circulating through you I would go five weeks with starting high and working down for the last two. As for the nolva in PCT personally I dont see a problem with that because you are letting your esters clear before adding in any nolva anyway. Besides that I was talking to a buddy of mine last night who is well respected and knowledable and he was telling me that nolva could be taken with tren and that the only drug where you couldnt take nolva would be deca. But as I said you are letting the esters clear but you are aware that deca takes a bit longer to clear but I think you have that covered. Good luck my friend and it's always great to get opinions. Talk with ya soon.

The new reviews i read in here and other boards begin to put doubt in my mind...So here is the good news,for next cycle,deca out and Eq in...I still have close to 100ml of the stuff in my closet!!!Will probably go down on test since i had great results at 750mg ew and doesn't feel the need to add more...But the Eq dose will be higher than it has ever been,at 600mg ew didn't feel it that much except i would have ate a 2l of ice cream per day(thanks god i am a man with strong will),will up that dosage at 900mg ew!

A couple of things.

First, that study was done on women NOT a male using AAS, BIG difference.

Second, that is WAY too much gear. Pro's don't even use that much, and yes I do know one and what he uses.

Last, your DIET is going to dictate what your body does. Diet is 80% of it, next is rest and training and then AAS.

Throwing that much gear into your body is just begging for sides and issues.

Good luck with everything.

In post #5 you say "stop bashing people with over 600 posts". What does that have to do with anything? You shouldn't be bashed if you have 1 post or 10,000009873760. There is no difference.

Originally Posted by MDR

I would keep the Deca at eight weeks. Keep the Test and D-bol, along with the A/I and HCG, and dump the rest. You can kick off with the D-bol. After dumping the Deca at eight weeks, you can ramp up the Test a bit. Personally, I'd use Prami rather than caber, but that's just a personal preference. Just my opinion, take it for whatever it's worth. Good luck with your cycle.

8 weeks? that shit doesnt kick until week 5-6 . . . that is a lot of shit you're taking fred, but fuck it . . if it was me, I would stick to the test-deca-dbol, but maybe ramp the test up for shits and giggles . . I dont see it being much of a lean bulk, but sure be fun

Originally Posted by CT

A couple of things.

First, that study was done on women NOT a male using AAS, BIG difference.

Second, that is WAY too much gear. Pro's don't even use that much, and yes I do know one and what he uses.

Last, your DIET is going to dictate what your body does. Diet is 80% of it, next is rest and training and then AAS.

Throwing that much gear into your body is just begging for sides and issues.

Good luck with everything.

In post #5 you say "stop bashing people with over 600 posts". What does that have to do with anything? You shouldn't be bashed if you have 1 post or 10,000009873760. There is no difference.

Agree with you on diet,you are what you eat and my diet is ok according to my nutritionnist plan.

About the 600 post things,it was just to be ironic about pyes comments about
my cycle as he has over 600 posts himself...Yes you can have over a billion posts and still be wrong and be saying shit!!!

I do partially agree with you on that nolva study but when you guys talk about nolva aromatizing into progesterone,where does that come from!!!This study has some weakness as it has been done amongst women like you said and not in male AAS users,but til now,it's still one of the most extensive study on the topic...If you can bring in something new,i'm all ears or rather eyes ,chocolate thunder!

I almost forgot since i have an extremist side(my cycle can easily prove it),if there's something wrong about my training it's just that it is too intense...Maybe too much of a good thing!If it can reassure you i've decided to go for 750mg test E instead of a gram(since i wont have to worry about libido with deca out of the way),and 900mg Eq rather than 600mg deca!

Still always good to receive comment from a guy as knowledgeable as you are!

See ya

I just think if you REALLY pay attention to your diet, rest and training the test, dbol and deca would be more than enough.

If you're trying to keep it a lean bulk then keep in some cardio and every two weeks take caliper measurements / girth measurements. It will help you keep an eye on what is really going on. You can't always tell by what the scale says, seeing that you're going to be holding some water from all of those compounds.

It's not easy to do but if you have everything dialed in you can get some really good results. Good luck Bro.

Sounds kinda strange, but I always notice water weight in my hands first, especially the fingers. I'd rather eat for a clean bulk than do cardio any day. I really don't mind a little water weight, as long as it isn't too pronounced.

Originally Posted by fredlabrute

The new reviews i read in here and other boards begin to put doubt in my mind...So here is the good news,for next cycle,deca out and Eq in...I still have close to 100ml of the stuff in my closet!!!Will probably go down on test since i had great results at 750mg ew and doesn't feel the need to add more...But the Eq dose will be higher than it has ever been,at 600mg ew didn't feel it that much except i would have ate a 2l of ice cream per day(thanks god i am a man with strong will),will up that dosage at 900mg ew!

i love some eq, but ive run it all the way up to 1200 and i noticed the same results with 600 just a thought, everyones' body responds different u know

Thanks tennfan,Eq has been a staple in all my cycle,but the truth is i never did feel the stuff was making kind of a difference except for my appettite...