Thread: First Cycle Advice (HW DONE!)

Looks like you did some good research. At a quick look I see 3 problems-

•No need to increase your test dose, 750mg for all 12 weeks will do it. I wouldn't touch over 750mg for your first cycle.

•Aromasin is a great AI on cycle, but remove it from PCT

•Run the dbol at 25mg, 15 is quite low.. and run it for the first 4 weeks instead of 2. Don't use it at the end of your cycle, as it will make for a more difficult PCT.



-TG

All very good points Tim, advice is solid.

Like Tim said about the dbol, on week 11-12, adding 15mg of dbol isn't going to do anything for ya. The only reason why I would see one adding dbol at the tail end of a cycle, would be for a pre-contest....it will puff ya up a bit. But again, 15mg for a week will yield nothing for you aside from making PCT a bit more difficult. IMHO.


/V

Tim is giving great advice....run the test at the same lvl every week...I would drop to maybe 600-650mgs EW though.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I have been researching this topic and lurking thru these threads for a long time. More than likely, I will only run one cycle (if I decide to do it at all. I have really been set on staying natural. ). Below is my proposed cycle. Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Stats: 33 yrs old, 6ft, 200# @ about 10-12% bf and trying to put on quality muscle mass. Goal is to be @ 225 with 10% or less bf. Calories will be at 4000+ with a goal of a minimum of 300g protein. Been lifting for a long time and have a solid foundation with a routine outlined here on post #27: Program for my next bulk

Cycle:
Week 1-2 Dbol 15mg ED
Week 1-5 Test E 600mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 6-8 Test E 800mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 9-10 Test E 1000mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 11-12 Dbol 15mg ED

Cycle Support:
Week 1-13 Aromasin 10mg ED
Week 2-12 HCG 500iu's (250iu's 2xweek)

PCT:
Week 13-17 Clomid 100/100/75/50 mg/day
Week 13-17 aromasin 20/20/20/10 mg/day
Week 13-17 Vit. C 3g ED (3 eq. doses)

On Hand:
Nolva for Gyno

Questions are in bold.

I know that Dbol is not required but as I plan on this being my only cycle I want to take full advantage. I am also keeping the Dbol doses moderate to keep from straining my liver. Is this amount going to provide me any benifit? I need some organ support for the Dbol and planned on taking milk thistle and saw palmetto. Should I take this during the entire cycle or only while taking Dbol? If I decide not to take Dbol, should I take any organ support?

If gyno begins to show, how much nolva should I start with?

+1 - to not increasing the test dose. 500mg EW is enough. Run the dbol for 4 weeks either at the start or end of the cycle. The way you have it set up is not beneficial.

You don't need the nolva, aromasin will work as long as you're dosing it correctly.

Start the PCT one week earlier and add some creatine.

Take the milk thistle a few weeks past the dbol, but you need to clarify HOW you plan on using it and if you're going to use it.

Thanks guys. Advice taken.

Originally Posted by CT

You don't need the nolva, aromasin will work as long as you're dosing it correctly.

Take the milk thistle a few weeks past the dbol, but you need to clarify HOW you plan on using it and if you're going to use it.

How do I know if I am dosing the aromasin correctly?

Originally Posted by CT

Take the milk thistle a few weeks past the dbol, but you need to clarify HOW you plan on using it and if you're going to use it.

Just to be clear, you want me to clarify how I plan on using what, the aromasin or the Dbol? If I'm going to use what, the aromasin or the Dbol?


Another couple of questions:

If I don't continue using gear, am I going to loose the gains made from the Dbol such that taking it is not worth it?

If I start and end with the same amount of test, won't gains plataue along the cycle? Would you recommend going 500/600/700 instead of 600/800/1000?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Thanks guys. Advice taken.



How do I know if I am dosing the aromasin correctly?



Just to be clear, you want me to clarify how I plan on using what, the aromasin or the Dbol? If I'm going to use what, the aromasin or the Dbol?


Another couple of questions:

If I don't continue using gear, am I going to loose the gains made from the Dbol such that taking it is not worth it?

You will lose some pounds as with every steroid, but you will also keep a lot of them lbs. (given you have a good pct)

If I start and end with the same amount of test, won't gains plataue along the cycle? Would you recommend going 500/600/700 instead of 600/800/1000?

You have to work the dose out so it is a maintenance dose for your body...try 12.5mgs ed or eod at first and up it if needed.
NO and NO....Your lvls will fluctuate too much....keep it one lvl and you will not plateau on one steady cycle.

Originally Posted by CT

Start the PCT one week earlier and add some creatine.

I thought PCT should not start until the esters have a chance to clear your body which takes about 2 weeks for Test E. Is this not correct? I'll be pinning thru week 10.

Originally Posted by CT

Take the milk thistle a few weeks past the dbol, but you need to clarify HOW you plan on using it and if you're going to use it.

Can you help me with this?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Thanks guys. Advice taken.



How do I know if I am dosing the aromasin correctly?



Just to be clear, you want me to clarify how I plan on using what, the aromasin or the Dbol? If I'm going to use what, the aromasin or the Dbol?


Another couple of questions:

If I don't continue using gear, am I going to loose the gains made from the Dbol such that taking it is not worth it?

If I start and end with the same amount of test, won't gains plataue along the cycle? Would you recommend going 500/600/700 instead of 600/800/1000?

If you're getting a burning sensation under your nipples you need to increase the dose, if your libido is suffering, joints hurt or are fatigued and moody you need to lower the dose.

Shooting more gear isn't going to lead to more gains, diet will, along with an oral but the way you plan on running the dbol is the strangest thing I've ever seen.

I don't mean to be rude and if I sound that way I apologize in advance, but, it really looks as if you did minimal research at best. You need to continue to read and ask questions before starting a cycle because if you did your homework (as you stated) a lot of these questions would be very easy for you to answer and understand.

Your screwing around with your hormones, it's kind of a big deal.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I thought PCT should not start until the esters have a chance to clear your body which takes about 2 weeks for Test E. Is this not correct? I'll be pinning thru week 10.



Can you help me with this?

My mistake, you're right.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I have been researching this topic and lurking thru these threads for a long time. More than likely, I will only run one cycle (if I decide to do it at all. I have really been set on staying natural. ). Below is my proposed cycle. Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Stats: 33 yrs old, 6ft, 200# @ about 10-12% bf and trying to put on quality muscle mass. Goal is to be @ 225 with 10% or less bf. Calories will be at 4000+ with a goal of a minimum of 300g protein. Been lifting for a long time and have a solid foundation with a routine outlined here on post #27: Program for my next bulk

Cycle:
Week 1-2 Dbol 15mg ED
Week 1-5 Test E 600mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 6-8 Test E 800mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 9-10 Test E 1000mg weekly (Pin Mon & Thurs)
Week 11-12 Dbol 15mg ED

Cycle Support:
Week 1-13 Aromasin 10mg ED
Week 2-12 HCG 500iu's (250iu's 2xweek)

PCT:
Week 13-17 Clomid 100/100/75/50 mg/day
Week 13-17 aromasin 20/20/20/10 mg/day
Week 13-17 Vit. C 3g ED (3 eq. doses)

On Hand:
Nolva for Gyno

Questions are in bold.

I know that Dbol is not required but as I plan on this being my only cycle I want to take full advantage. I am also keeping the Dbol doses moderate to keep from straining my liver. Is this amount going to provide me any benifit? I need some organ support for the Dbol and planned on taking milk thistle and saw palmetto. Should I take this during the entire cycle or only while taking Dbol? If I decide not to take Dbol, should I take any organ support?

If gyno begins to show, how much nolva should I start with?

You're taking way too much test and a little piece of advice(i'm know to be kind of a dosage abuser),just before your pct try to taper your T down instead of increasing it,had never acne problems but did get some while on pct at 750mg ew and i'm weighing 270lbs at 11-12%bf!!!Taking a liver support during your cycle won't improves your liver enzymes so personnally i prefer to take the protection after i'm done with the oral!If gyno comes in,try nolva at 40mg ed for 3-4 days until the symptoms are completely gone,it'll do wonders believe me...

Good luck!Hope it isn't your first cycle!That's quite an amount of test!Would personnaly begin at 750mg and go down three last week like this 750mg/500mg and 250mg last week before pct!

Originally Posted by CT

Shooting more gear isn't going to lead to more gains, diet will, along with an oral but the way you plan on running the dbol is the strangest thing I've ever seen.

The reason I went with week 1-2 of Dbol is just to jump start my cycle and limit the sides as much as possile (newbie cold feet, mainly). However, I'll take everyones advice and go with week 1-4 @ 25mg/day if I decide to take it.

Originally Posted by CT

I don't mean to be rude and if I sound that way I apologize in advance, but, it really looks as if you did minimal research at best. You need to continue to read and ask questions before starting a cycle because if you did your homework (as you stated) a lot of these questions would be very easy for you to answer and understand.

Your screwing around with your hormones, it's kind of a big deal.

Yes. It is a big deal. I have been reading research and threads on here for at least 6 months. Sometimes, especially on threads, the information you gather is subjective, based on opinion and can sometimes be contradictive. After all my readings, I now have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done, but now I just need some help from the experienced, such as yourself, to formulate a high quality cycle. It would be wreckless to not get this advice, which is why I started this thread. I don't think your advice, comments, or opinions are rude or insulting in any way. I concider everything thus far (from everyone) to be of great help and of sound quality.

However, as far as the questions I am asking, it is mainly about the PCT and cycle support. It is hard to find dosage amounts for these things. Statements like:

Originally Posted by CT

If you're getting a burning sensation under your nipples you need to increase the dose, if your libido is suffering, joints hurt or are fatigued and moody you need to lower the dose.

is gold and I think come with experience, no?

As far as the test dosages, I got those from reading the sticky "first cycle and PCT" by heavyiron.

Here is exactly what I would do for my first cycle if I got a do over (I wish I did).

1-10 - 500mg Test EW
1-10 - 12.5mg Aromasin ED
1-10 - 500ius HCG EW
7-10 - 40mg Dbol

PCT:
13-16 - Clomid 100/50/50/50
13-14 - 12.5mg Aromasin EOD
15-16 - 12.5mg Aromasin E3D
11 - 1000ius HCG M,W,F
13-16 - 10g Creatine ED
13-16 - 3g Vitamin C ED

That's it. You should be taking Tyler's Liver detox and R-ALA while taking the dbol and then 2-3 weeks after. That will keep your liver value in check.

Undo post based upon CT

Originally Posted by CT

Here is exactly what I would do for my first cycle if I got a do over (I wish I did).

1-10 - 500mg Test EW
1-10 - 12.5mg Aromasin ED
1-10 - 500ius HCG EW
7-10 - 40mg Dbol

PCT:
13-16 - Clomid 100/50/50/50
13-14 - 12.5mg Aromasin EOD
15-16 - 12.5mg Aromasin E3D
11 - 1000ius HCG M,W,F
13-16 - 10g Creatine ED
13-16 - 3g Vitamin C ED

That's it. You should be taking Tyler's Liver detox and R-ALA while taking the dbol and then 2-3 weeks after. That will keep your liver value in check.

I was posting an updated cycle similar to this when you posted this. But the revised cycle I was going to post was going to include a couple of comments that TimGreenly and VictorZ06 made that differs from your cycle.

TimGreenly suggested removing the aromasin from PCT.

VictorZ06 said "The only reason why I would see one adding dbol at the tail end of a cycle, would be for a pre-contest...."

So, would it be better to have the aromasin in PCT or not?

And, should the Dbol be in the start or end of cycle?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

I was posting an updated cycle similar to this when you posted this. But the revised cycle I was going to post was going to include a couple of comments that TimGreenly and VictorZ06 made that differs from your cycle.

TimGreenly suggested removing the aromasin from PCT.

VictorZ06 said "The only reason why I would see one adding dbol at the tail end of a cycle, would be for a pre-contest...."

So, would it be better to have the aromasin in PCT or not?

And, should the Dbol be in the start or end of cycle?

It's just personal preference, nothing more. Just because they suggest something different doesn't mean it's wrong. The reason I like the oral at the end of the cycle is due to myostatin levels dropping, when that happens your gains stop. An oral will dramatically help.

My theory is why frontload a cycle with an oral, you will be strongest at the end and an oral at the end will make you even stronger.

You still have test esters in your body after you stop injecting and you have the probability of an elevated estrogen level.

YOU need to read through everything, gather the information and come to a conclusion. Their are many ways to do a cycle, you need to do it the way you think is best. There is no one way only in this game.

Originally Posted by CT

The reason I like the oral at the end of the cycle is due to myostatin levels dropping, when that happens your gains stop. An oral will dramatically help.

This is the reason why I initially had the Dbol for 2 weeks at the end. And I had the Dbol for 2 weeks at the begiining to kick start the cycle. But I guess that was a dumb idea.

Anyways, thanks CT and everyone esle thus far.

Anyone else have any comments before I submit a revised cycle?

Revised Cycle:

Cycle:
1-10 - 500mg Test E EW
1-10 - 10mg Aromasin ED (Adjust as neccessary)
1-10 - 500ius HCG EW
7-10 - 40mg Dbol

PCT:
13-16 - Clomid 100/50/50/50
13-14 - 12.5mg Aromasin EOD
15-16 - 12.5mg Aromasin E3D
11 - 1000ius HCG M,W,F???
13-16 - 10g Creatine ED
13-16 - 3g Vitamin C ED

Questions:

1. If I get Methanoplex 50, how do I figure out 40mg out of a 50mg tab? Any better suggestions?

2. As suggested by CT, for week 11 of PCT, 1000 ius of HCG 3x. That is 3000iu's. Is that a reasonable amount or too much?

3. It was mentioned that the PCT will be more difficult by running the Dbol at the end of the cycle. I like CT's reasoning for suggesting it at the end. For those that say it will make PCT harder, can you elaborate on "HARDER"?

4. Is the workout program I linked to in my very first post enough or should I add a day? Keep in mind, I only listed the main coumpounds, I also do some direct work.

5. Any comments on anything else?

Thanks in advance.

My receomendation-

Cycle:
1-10 - 500mg Test E EW
1-10 - 10mg Aromasin ED (Adjust as neccessary)
1-10 - 500ius HCG EW
1-4- 40mg Dbol

PCT:
13-16 - Clomid 100/50/50/50
13-16 - 10g Creatine ED


Will do you just fine

-TG

Originally Posted by TimGreenly

My receomendation-

Cycle:
1-10 - 500mg Test E EW
1-10 - 10mg Aromasin ED (Adjust as neccessary)
1-10 - 500ius HCG EW
1-4- 40mg Dbol

PCT:
13-16 - Clomid 100/50/50/50
13-16 - 10g Creatine ED


Will do you just fine

-TG

looks like a very solid first cycle to me !

Any opinions on where and what brand of Dbol and test E? Was thinking methanoplex 50 and Testaplexn 250 from GENXXL. Might be hard to break out 40mg from the 50mg Dbol.

Would rotating depots between Lglute, Rglute, Lquad, Rquad be enough? What size pins do ya'll use for the glutes and quads? Best place to get them?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Any opinions on where and what brand of Dbol and test E? Was thinking methanoplex 50 and Testaplexn 250 from GENXXL. Might be hard to break out 40mg from the 50mg Dbol.

Would rotating depots between Lglute, Rglute, Lquad, Rquad be enough? What size pins do ya'll use for the glutes and quads? Best place to get them?

I like the methano's 50mg. You're right it will be hard to break off 40mg. I was in the same boat and just ended up doing 50mg cause breaking it could never really be accurate. It crumbles sometimes, not a clean break.

20g for drawing. 23g for pining. its a preference thing.

Any thoughts/help on post #21?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Any opinions on where and what brand of Dbol and test E? Was thinking methanoplex 50 and Testaplexn 250 from GENXXL. Might be hard to break out 40mg from the 50mg Dbol.

Would rotating depots between Lglute, Rglute, Lquad, Rquad be enough? What size pins do ya'll use for the glutes and quads? Best place to get them?

Pink Thai's are hands down the best dbols I've ever used.

You're making it harder than it needs to be, just rotate sites, it's not that complicated.

Based on your experience, which is better, Aromasin or armidex and why?

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Based on your experience, which is better, Aromasin or armidex and why?

armidex is not particularly effective for drugs that tend to be subject to peripheral aromatization, methandrostanolone in particular. often a full 2mg daily of armidex will still not stop dbol bloat and cramping. aromasin on the other hand is very effective peripherally, highly suppressing what is generally E2 conversion. arimidex is best at E1 suppression (tissue affinity, gonadal, adrenal, etc and because its a competitive inhibitor). it suppress e1 at even the lowest of doses, but takes rather high doses to see significant impact on peripheral aromatase (which if you have is generally where it is). general reccomendation is aromasin as a base for most aromatic cycles with LETROZOLE on hand. Generally also reccomend a dopaminergic, at least on hand, cabaser tablets or pramipexole (liquid or tabs). prolactin is as involved in gynecomastia and testosterone suppression as estrogen. Especially when running deca or tren.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Based on your experience, which is better, Aromasin or armidex and why?

Aromasin. It's a suicidal, arimidex has the possibillity of estrogen rebound as it only supresses, it doesn't destroy and kill like aromasin does.

As far as starting your first cycle are these pins only or can you get some of them in oral form?

everybody has made good points here. id say first off 1gram of test a week is a lot for a first timer. agree with the fact that theres no need to increase test doses pick something in the middle. 500-600mg a week split into two inj days. aromasin should help with the gyno...remove it from ur pct and do the clomid or novedex then. the hcg should help ur balls from shrinking. as far as the dbol goes....15mg is better than nothing but of course 20-25mg is better. i know ppl who have gained 15 lbs in a month on just 10 mg a day...of course it was mostly all water. id do it for the first four weeks dont see any point in just doing it for two. as far as the end of the cycle goes i actually have read and know numerous ppl as crazy as it sounds use it for the last four weeks of their cycle and into their pct at low doses to compensate for expected low levels of testostorone. i have never done this so thats not speaking from experience. milk thistle is good for liver protection if u do the dbol as it is synthesized there. no need if you arent doing the dbol. i have had better results with aromasin during cycle for gyno 12.5mg-25 mg eod. note that this will cut on some of ur gains bc it will block some water retention.