Thread: Sustanon 250

Hey bro, great first post! Welcome, and yeah, a shot of sus 250 every 5 days is a perfect dose if you haven't been juicing for a number of years. You might want to run a little longer than 8 weeks, maybe 12, or not, your choice. Conservative is good. I personally wouldn't frontload, but some people swear by it. I prefer to start low and slowly ramp up as I shut down. Also info on Pct with clomid can be found very easily.

Just to expand on what i mean by "start low and slowly ramp up"; in a cycle like this one could hypothetically run the sus 250 once every week, then 5 days, then once every 3 if sides are manageable.

Just curious, do you have access to anything else?

Why not go with Test E @ 500mg/wk and pin 2x a week for 10 weeks. Use Test Prop weeks 10-12 until the test E clears out of your system then start a clomid PCT. Maybe throw an oral in from week 1-4 to get it started. Run an AI like arimadex or aromasin throughout.

That is a nice simple cycle that some will argue is better than sust. That is an overview. Do more research on whatever you want to do. Since you have experience maybe try throwing some deca in at 300-400mg/wk to run with the test e.

250mg of Sus every 5 days won't work well. Sus has 4-5 different types of Test (depending on the brand) all of which release at different times which can make it a pain to administer properly and maintain consistent levels. Since some of the Test esters start releasing within hours (like Prop or Ace) and some of them take weeks before they have built up to decent levels you end up having to administer it once every 2-3 days in order to maintain a level dose.

Test E or Test C would be a better way to go IMO as you should only have to administer it 1-2 times a week in order to maintain consistent levels. Consistent levels are very important as if the Test levels are constantly fluctuating it's harder to make gains and it's more stress on your body.

Typically someone who hasn't used Roids before (or haven't used them in 10+ years) would do well taking 400-500mg Test C or Test E a week. 2 shots a week, 1 shot of 200-250mg every 3-4 days.

PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) is very important, you're lucky you never experienced any sides. IMO, the 3 must haves are:

HCG: During the cycle in order to help kick your boys back in gear. This way when the cycle is over it hasn't been 10 weeks since they worked and they will recover more quickly. Instead of taking several months for your body to recover it may only take 4-6 weeks. If you don't run it during the cycle (the best time) you can run it afterwards.

Clomid: Run immediately after all the Test has left your system (typically 2-3 weeks after the last shot). It helps get things running again.

Nolvadex: Kept on hand in case of any gyno flare ups. It can also be run together with Clomid during PCT to help your body get back up to speed more quickly.

Having Aromasin on hand to keep your Estrogen levels from getting too high during the cycle would be wise too. It should also help with your gains.

I'm sure you've read it but the First Cycle and PCT sticky is a good source of info:
First Cycle and PCT

Also some more info on Good PCT:
Here is the Doc's protocol for HPTA recovery.

I hope that helps.

Hey Jarhead, Code slinger above talks the truth. Stay away from sus. No disrespect to Maxbicep but too many vets on here will tell you that's bad advice. Too many different esters can get your plasma levels out of whack and increase sides. Most pin Sus EOD. I would stay with Test e or c. I pin Monday and Friday. Alot of others pin Sun and Thur. Personal pref. I wouldnt pin for 8 weeks either. Here it is jarhead, Barney style!

Weeks 1-10 Test E pin every 3 and 4 days. 250mg
Weeks 2 or 3 through PCT, An AI (arimidex or aromasin) I do adex 0.5mg EOD. I would keep some Nolva on hand in case of gyno flare up. Otherwise dont take it but have it close.
Weeks 2 or 3 through week 12 HCG 500iu-1000iu per week
I preload with hawthorne. That usually takes care of any BP issues.
Weeks 12-16 = PCT clomid 100/75/50/50 is what most do. Youre last pin will be week 10. It takes about 2 weeks for ester to clear.

That's all you really need if youre getting back into it. I would have some blood work done before just in case since you were doing some horrible things to your body at such a young age. Youre lucky you are not on TRT and have some boobies! Hooah!!!!

Lol, thanks Cav. Yeah over the past month or so of reading you really look back and go, WTF did we do? lol probably abuse levels and just got lucky, you know what they say Better Lucky than Good! Thanks for the Barney style time to make some calls. OohRah.

Originally Posted by USMC

Lol, thanks Cav. Yeah over the past month or so of reading you really look back and go, WTF did we do? lol probably abuse levels and just got lucky, you know what they say Better Lucky than Good! Thanks for the Barney style time to make some calls. OohRah.

No problem. Im used to breakin it down Barney Rubble style for all my privates. (They not the brightest stars in the sky!) Hit me up if you have more questions. Be glad to help

I have to agree with Cav and Code - don't bother with sustanon, just go with straight enth or cyp, it will keep your blood levels more stable. PCT - well everyone does it a little different, so you can take advice on that with an open mind. I like to run clomid/nolvadex myself and sometimes arimidex during cycle if the dosages are higher. Dosages and times are just as Cav has listed here. Never used HCG so I can't comment on that but some guys swear by it.

Ok so made a call and switched to C, E was a no go unavialable at this time, so gonna follow your advice Code and Cav. As for the PCT, said individual is a long time user and has never heard or done PCT, kinda old school I guess and/or doesn't care. He has someone else who has the Nova however another no go on the Clomid nor HCG. There answers were the same, for what purpose?lol.

So sticking with your suggestions, and along with doing other research and the better safe than sorry, or Cav might appreciate this one, take Mr. Murphy out of the equation. Any reputable, i.e dependable places you go to get either? Neither is a CDS however not exactly OTC and a quick google search brought up a hundred different sites. Any place you would reccomend?

TIA for all your help fellas. And CAV keep your ass safe bro.

Use the board sponsors here. You can get pct and ancillaries. And yea, old school guys dont care for pct. My first cycle was nine years ago and AI's were unheard of back then but clomid was around. It's amazing how far science and research has come in the 2000s. I used sust nine years ago and I'm using test e now and this cycle is more than twice as strong as the sust cycle but I'm using the exact same doseage. I'm quite happy with my gear to be honest and I would never use sust again. IMO sust is more for the advanced user. For the novice like myself, test e or c is sufficient and will provide better gains. Plus you only have to pin twice a week rather than every other day. Great first post. I'd be interested to hear more stories of overseas and how you obtained gear and used it back then.

Good call on the Test vs Sus and PCT. Like rippedgolfer said, check out the sponsor forums. All of the forum sponsors are reputable businesses. It's against the rules to ask for or give out information on sources, just so you know.

Btw, does anyone know if that applies to everything or just anabolics?

Originally Posted by rippedgolfer

Use the board sponsors here. You can get pct and ancillaries. And yea, old school guys dont care for pct. My first cycle was nine years ago and AI's were unheard of back then but clomid was around. It's amazing how far science and research has come in the 2000s. I used sust nine years ago and I'm using test e now and this cycle is more than twice as strong as the sust cycle but I'm using the exact same doseage. I'm quite happy with my gear to be honest and I would never use sust again. IMO sust is more for the advanced user. For the novice like myself, test e or c is sufficient and will provide better gains. Plus you only have to pin twice a week rather than every other day. Great first post. I'd be interested to hear more stories of overseas and how you obtained gear and used it back then.

Yeah prob was a bad question. There are numerous sponsors, however some boards don't mind you bashing or picking one sponsor over another, and other boards take a dim view of that. Not sure how the mods react here so probably shouldn't have asked.

I agree science and medicine has come seemingly light years since the 90's. Sure Clomid was around, from research it seems it was created in the 60's and had clinical trials back than but wasn't until the 80's that it was FDA approved so who knows when someone figure'd out it would be a good PCT use.

There are many countries that are legal for Anabolic Steroids, no script necissary, just walk into the pharmacy and walk out, easy as purchasing tylenol here. Something I really wish would be changed as I'm sure most people here would agree that we, being the US, are about as uptight a society as there is out there. The "horror" stories and bad rep was certainly brought upon by well people who were abusing back when I was and even before. Nowadays, like I said you guys have it down to a science and I fully believe it's probably 100x healthier now than back than. Certainly no worse than cigarettes or alcohol,lol.

Like I said, you could just walk into the pharm right on the street and go up to the counter. Obvious language barrier, but flexing and pointing to your arm, or making a jabbing motion at your rear got the point across. The pharmacist would simply bring out however much you slid american dollars across for, which judging by pricing nowadays holy hell you pay alot. Back than given the same number of shots $20 would fill most peoples "cycles" on here, and maybe even 2, and we were sliding $40-50 across every time. Like I said what you got depended on I guess how far he felt like walking down the aisle.

As for using there were a couple guys who had used before(this being the first go round) and followed their lead. Back than it wasn't mg like you guys are talking now rather time and cc, so we would take 1 cc for the first couple weeks than moved gradually up to 1.5cc than 2cc for the rest, and would drop back down to 1cc the final couple weeks before rotating back in. As for mg's. I couldn't tell you. What is the conversion rate? I guess that was the old version of PCT. Work into it, load up, than gradually let off when you had to when the supply would be gone.

Every 4th day you would take a shot, or 3rd pending scheduling and what you had going on, PITA in the bush and would adjust accordingly. JWTC in Korea isn't a joke and second only to Panama.

Anyways, really given the knowledge I've picked up here and other forums I would strongly urge anyone reading this and just starting out to follow the advice from the pro's and other guys on here. I'm just giving my own personal experience so people could give a safer and smarter alternative opinion.

Sorry, havnt read all the posts, but I do want to clear some air.
Test is test period.
Sust is just fine, and yes it by design is used for prolonged release of the blend using diffrent esters to do so.
But, here is the deal, many guys front load with sust, and allowing the esters to be taken advantage of.
Once the heavy ester is in your system it makes no diffrence.

Sust was designed for one shot and to stay in the system for a determined length of time and that is for TRT.

Here is some information about PCT I wrote some time ago:
I noticed codeslinger posted a link to a post on the doctors protocol I wrote, might as well bring a bit more info to the table....lol

Understanding PCT

PCT, what does it mean?
Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?
It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?
Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).
So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.
Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.
The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.
So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.
What does this mean?
You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.
This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.
I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?
First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
It basically is pregnant woman’s urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.
The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don’t recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.
The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).
If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.
One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.
HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.
How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).
It occupy’s the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It’s like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.
Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.
Clomid is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism, clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days will double LH responce and increase FSH by 20% to 50%, that is huge.
Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.
What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see’s this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.
There are a couple of ways you can do this.
First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.
Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.
That’s pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.
You don’t have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.
By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.
I shutdown very hard and I notice atrophy in as little as 3 weeks.

If anyone has any questions or wants to fill in some spaces just let me know.
Cheers.

OK so had a nice PM laid out but apparently you need 20 posts before you can send them.

So here it is, all PCT taken care of, mostly free but won't get into that handy having a wife as a nurse.

So I posted before that I made a call and switched to C instead of the Sust. Turns out said person only has enough C for a 6 week cycle based upon Cav and Codes reccomendation, but offered to give me a discount on the Sust and use it to either start or finish for the other 4 weeks at 80 bucks for 6 amps.

Before anyone else ask's yes I trust said person, old military buddy and I'll leave it at that unless Cav want's to PM me and I can give you more details as you understand the brotherhood.

So the question, how to proceed? I checked here and the almighty google but wasn't exactly sure how to even word the search. Mixing turned up nothing but people mixing different tests in the same stick and that being acceptable. This is a little different. And it's not a stack either technically.
So what would you do? Get a full 10 week cycle for less than 200bucks however you're using 2 completely different things and how the hell would you set it up?

TIA.

Me personally I would run that sust at the front then switch to the faster cypionate for the last 6 weeks.
If you front loaded the sust first, and wanted to do lets say a 10 week cycle of lets say 500mg a week, I would pin 3 amps of the sust first week, then 2 amps for the next 3 weeks, then the following 6 weeks of cypionate.

But seriously test is test, only issue I have against sust is two things.
1. the long clearance time of the long ester making PCT a bit harder to guage the start date.
2. the pain form the propionate.

In the end, test is test.

Originally Posted by hackskii

run that sust at the front then switch to the faster cypionate for the last 6 weeks.
.

Cyp is not a shorter ester than sust.

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

Cyp is not a shorter ester than sust.

The clearance time of sust would be longer than cypionate.
Sust has 4 esters in it:
30mg propionate
60mg phenylpropionate
60mg of isocapronate
100mg of deconate

To understand the half life of an ester you have to take in account for the carbon atoms.
Approximately each carbon atoms is equal to a half-life of 1.5 days.
The cypionate ester has 8 carbon atoms, whereas the deconate ester has 10 carbon atoms.

So, the long ester in sust is longer than cypionate.
At 500mg a week of cyp or sust after a 10 week cycle it will take longer to clear sustanon starting PCT than it would cypionate.

Originally Posted by hackskii

The clearance time of sust would be longer than cypionate.
Sust has 4 esters in it:
30mg propionate
60mg phenylpropionate
60mg of isocapronate
100mg of deconate

To understand the half life of an ester you have to take in account for the carbon atoms.
Approximately each carbon atoms is equal to a half-life of 1.5 days.
The cypionate ester has 8 carbon atoms, whereas the deconate ester has 10 carbon atoms.

So, the long ester in sust is longer than cypionate.
At 500mg a week of cyp or sust after a 10 week cycle it will take longer to clear sustanon starting PCT than it would cypionate.

Which is the loger ester in Sustanon? Is it the isocapronate or the decanoate? I know obviously the two props are the short esters (about 72 hours active max).

Deconate bro, same ester as in deca hence the nandrolone deconate short term Deca.

Problem with sust is by design it was made for more stable release of testosterone for TRT and for that it works good, but cycles of it at the end tend to take some time to clear making PCT a bit of a crap shoot to start.
If you start your PCT too early, you can miss the responce of the SERMS as the androgens would be too high for clomid or nolva to work.
When I do a cycle of sust I take between 3 to 4 weeks to have that clear, obviously the more you use the longer it takes to clear.

Thanks for the thread Devil!!! Im almost in the same exact shoes as you, but imma 0331 and came across sus thus did an 8 week cycle. When I was in Korea all i could get my hands on was Test C ; 8 years ago...Like Hack said the old adage 'test is test' and seeing how my body responeded to the sus than it did to the C some years ago wasnt what I had expected...Thanks for the knowledge everyone!!!

Originally Posted by heaz1ski

Thanks for the thread Devil!!! Im almost in the same exact shoes as you, but imma 0331 and came across sus thus did an 8 week cycle. When I was in Korea all i could get my hands on was Test C ; 8 years ago...Like Hack said the old adage 'test is test' and seeing how my body responeded to the sus than it did to the C some years ago wasnt what I had expected...Thanks for the knowledge everyone!!!

Where at in Korea? Camp Pohang? Or up around Seoul? If it was Pohang, I bet I know where you went,lol. 2 blocks over from Club Love? If thats even still around, along with the red light district behind it. Many a good time in there,lol.

Thanks hackskii, appreciate the info! All speed ahead it seems.

I'm not sure if this is off topic but since sust is a blend of different esters, would it be the best test for TRT? Or will C or E be better?

Originally Posted by rippedgolfer

I'm not sure if this is off topic but since sust is a blend of different esters, would it be the best test for TRT? Or will C or E be better?

Well, good question.
In Europe they use sust, in the states they use Cypionate.
Cypionate has a bit more testosterone per 100mg than sust due to the heavier ester attached to the sust, and also phenylprop is a heavy ester compared to its release time, so overall cyp has more testosterone with same amount of mg.

Cypionate when used in TRT (average dose 100mg per week IM) tends to fall a bit day 6 and 7 leaving the guy a bit low those days and day 8 with next injection just before it kicks in.
To get around this some guys are doing their injections sub-Q to slow dispersion as fat isnt as vascular as muscle and this seems to be working rather well.
Not many guys do this and most endo doctors wont, or dont suggest this because it is out of the normal thinking, and out of protocol guidlines for TRT.

One other way around this is 250 to 350iu HCG days 5, 6, or day 7 as HCG will bump endo levels of testosterone to keep levels more stable (Dr. John Cristler does this).

Or, you can use transdermals and never crash, but depending on the person transdermals tend to elivate DHT levels due to making contact with hair follicles.
If hair loss is an issue then injection is the preferred method, but if excess aromitization is an issue then one should select transdermal preperations, do to the mild AI properties of DHT.

Originally Posted by hackskii

Well, good question.
In Europe they use sust, in the states they use Cypionate.
Cypionate has a bit more testosterone per 100mg than sust due to the heavier ester attached to the sust, and also phenylprop is a heavy ester compared to its release time, so overall cyp has more testosterone with same amount of mg.

Cypionate when used in TRT (average dose 100mg per week IM) tends to fall a bit day 6 and 7 leaving the guy a bit low those days and day 8 with next injection just before it kicks in.
To get around this some guys are doing their injections sub-Q to slow dispersion as fat isnt as vascular as muscle and this seems to be working rather well.
Not many guys do this and most endo doctors wont, or dont suggest this because it is out of the normal thinking, and out of protocol guidlines for TRT.

One other way around this is 250 to 350iu HCG days 5, 6, or day 7 as HCG will bump endo levels of testosterone to keep levels more stable (Dr. John Cristler does this).

Or, you can use transdermals and never crash, but depending on the person transdermals tend to elivate DHT levels due to making contact with hair follicles.
If hair loss is an issue then injection is the preferred method, but if excess aromitization is an issue then one should select transdermal preperations, do to the mild AI properties of DHT.

If your doing Test C for TRT and worried about keeping your levels stable, why not just shoot twice per week like you would on cycle at a lower dose? Do you need to worry about Sub-q shots or ramping up HCG at the end?

TRT does not require HCG perse, but there are good reasons for doing so.
Many TRT guys have to go into clinics to get their shots.

Another thing, on cycle when you are jabbing 500mg a week, there is no need to split the shots.
The body in homeostasis test levels rise and fall during the course of the day, this is called the circadian rythem.

Maintaining blood levels for TRT is just so they dont fall off and leave the man flat.
Years ago the protocol was 1 shot of 100mg once a week of cyp, 200mg for two weeks, and 300mg for 3 weeks.
The men on the 300mg protocol tended to be pretty horney and felt great the first 2 weeks but kind of flat the last week.
This is the only example of stable blood levels that fits, shooting 500mg blood levels will be off the chart for weeks, so multiple jabs a week just promote more hastle of injection, more scar tissue, and no more gains.