Understanding PCT

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 11:28 AM

Understanding PCT

PCT, what does it mean?
Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?
It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?
Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).
So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.
Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.
The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.
So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.
What does this mean?
You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.
This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.
I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?
First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
It basically is pregnant woman’s urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.
The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don’t recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.
The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).
If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.
One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.
HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.
How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).
It occupy’s the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It’s like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.
Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.
Clomid is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism, clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days will double LH responce and increase FSH by 20% to 50%, that is huge.
Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.
What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see’s this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.
There are a couple of ways you can do this.
First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.
Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.
That’s pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.
You don’t have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.
By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.
I shutdown very hard and I notice atrophy in as little as 3 weeks.

If anyone has any questions or wants to fill in some spaces just let me know.
Cheers.

**World-Pharma.org** · 12-21-2010, 12:44 PM

Great Article.

**SloppyJ** · 12-21-2010, 01:06 PM

You like the nolva on pct in conjunction with the clomid? Why's that.

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 01:25 PM

I just find synergy with that.

A doctor friend made a PCT protocol using nolva, clomid and HCG that he used to treat over a thousand males to help them recover.

I have tried the nolva, aromasin PCT, didnt work, tried nolva only, didnt work, clomid is a must for me but after 3 weeks I do get tracers, and this is said to be due to occular toxcicity from the clomid.
To be fair, some guys clomid does not sit well with.

**bknoxx** · 12-21-2010, 02:06 PM

wht are tracers ? im not sure wht tht is

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by bknoxx

wht are tracers ? im not sure wht tht is

It looks something like this:

Terrible example but it is when you move you hand in front of your face and it leaves like a stream of your hand like snapshots that follow your hand.
Worse at night and first thing in the morning.
It is worst when you are driving and looking at tail lights at night.
Like a flash bulb where you saw it and keep seeing it.....

**GMO** · 12-21-2010, 02:21 PM

Good read. My only addition would be the addition of a cortisol blocker in PCT. One issue with coming off cycle is a build up of cortisol that demolishes your hard earned gains. I've found this to be essential in my PCT.

**bknoxx** · 12-21-2010, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by hackskii

It looks something like this:

Terrible example but it is when you move you hand in front of your face and it leaves like a stream of your hand like snapshots that follow your hand.
Worse at night and first thing in the morning.
It is worst when you are driving and looking at tail lights at night.
Like a flash bulb where you saw it and keep seeing it.....

'Ahh i know wht ur talking about now ive had those before at night
ty for responding

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by GMO

Good read. My only addition would be the addition of a cortisol blocker in PCT. One issue with coming off cycle is a build up of cortisol that demolishes your hard earned gains. I've found this to be essential in my PCT.

There are ways around that and this has to do more with adrenal fetigue, low dose DHEA @ 20mg totally is helpful here.

Magnolia is a nice herb for this, but honestly blocking cortisol when it is not an issue is not the best idea.
Doing something like drinking a glass of orange juice or any carb will spike insulin and remove the cortisol issue.

**Code_Slinger** · 12-21-2010, 02:56 PM

Hackskii

I've read that the recommended dosage of HCG during and after cycle differ. I saw what you recommended for PCT, but what is the best dosage while still on cycle?

If someone were to use HCG during the cycle is there any benefit from taking it during PCT? For example, if during a 12 week cycle I used HCG during weeks 3-10 at low doses, would there be any benefit from waiting a few weeks and then continuing taking HCG during PCT? Would someone be better served to take it weeks 3-12 and risk desensitization?

Is there any way to improve upon the HCG/Clomid/Nolvadex combo for PCT? Also, is there any way to lessen recovery time? For example, DHEA, Vitamin D, C, etc.,

Thanks!

Can someone make this a sticky?

**cutright** · 12-21-2010, 03:02 PM

If you run the HCG through your cycle will help speed up recovery...the dose required to keep your balls working is only about 1000iu per week. Why shut yourself down completely if you dont have to. I know small balls makes your unit look bigger but the girls catch on to that trick.

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Code_Slinger

Hackskii

I've read that the recommended dosage of HCG during and after cycle differ. I saw what you recommended for PCT, but what is the best dosage while still on cycle?

If someone were to use HCG during the cycle is there any benefit from taking it during PCT? For example, if during a 12 week cycle I used HCG during weeks 3-10 at low doses, would there be any benefit from waiting a few weeks and then continuing taking HCG during PCT? Would someone be better served to take it weeks 3-12 and risk desensitization?

Is there any way to improve upon the HCG/Clomid/Nolvadex combo for PCT? Also, is there any way to lessen recovery time? For example, DHEA, Vitamin D, C, etc.,

Thanks!

Can someone make this a sticky?

Well, at 500iu twice a week there wont be an issue with leydig cell desentization, especially if one uses an AI during cycle.
I would run it starting half way into the first week as once the exogenous testosterone hits your system LH will drop or stop, this is the very start of the shutdown process.
Why not run it right through the clearance time of the gear as when androgens fall?
This in itself will help endogenous function and help to keep the nuts alive with less negative feedback due to loss of androgens from exogenious administration.

I like to run it in the begenning of PCT where I am running nolva and clomid.

Ideally, if you take a blood test and endogenous test is low, you would in theory keep the HCG in there for full testicular function as varified with blood work.
If your levels are within base values and the other gear has cleared your system, you drop the HCG and continue with the nolva and clomid to spark the pituitary to produce LH and the balls are already rolling along.

Vitamin D defencies has been noticed to have a negitive influence on HCG's benefits, and this is a common defency, which is not good.
Vitamin D if one is deficient will have problems absorbing calcium, have compromised immune function among a bunch of other things.
RDA is going to be raised on that one if it has not already.

Vitamin E is said to help leydig cell sensitivity, so adding this antioxidant vitamin is a good idea anyway, to help agains free radical damage.

Now, I cant prove the next part but it is suspected HGH can help and there is a study floating around that it helps leydig cells, but also the GHRP-2 for instance tends to give me more night time wood, not sure why but it does and cant see a problem with this as GH and pulsing and releasing peptides tend to curb cortisol as well, making recovery potentially easier and the benefits of spiked GH.

Another addition for those guys that cant seem to recover one would then probably use something like HMG along with HCG, this gives the added benefits of FSH with LH.

Zinc is another herb that is necessary for testosterone production ans actually is a very mild AI, so taking something like ZMA at night before bed probably could not hurt.

Hell, even sunlight is suggested to boost Test levels in men.

Not saying anyone has to run everything, but for information purposes defencies would probably hinder and not help.

**cutright** · 12-21-2010, 05:09 PM

^^^perfectly explained ^^^

**rippedgolfer** · 12-21-2010, 05:42 PM

Good info and read. Thanks for sharing!

**Life** · 12-21-2010, 05:54 PM

HCG isn't collected from a pregnant woman's urine. It was isolated from this but it is not produced from this. I think that is an important distinction.

You might also want to mention that aromasin helps increase sensitivity to the release of LH. This is why I run adex during cycle and aromasin in the two weeks up til PCT (Assuming I'm running test-e). This is effectively like using clomid while still on cycle so your PCT is more effective. As clomid raises LH. Not the study I was looking for but interesting none the less: (I'll look for the study I was referencing)

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.
Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of a potent aromatase inhibitor, aromasin (exemestane), in young males.

Mauras N, Lima J, Patel D, Rini A, di Salle E, Kwok A, Lippe B.

Nemours Children's Clinic and Research Programs, Jacksonville, Florida 32207, USA. nmuras@nemours.org

Erratum in:

* J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Feb;89(2):732.

Abstract

Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14-26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P <or= 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P <or= 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P <or= 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 +/- 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Life

HCG isn't collected from a pregnant woman's urine. It was isolated from this but it is not produced from this. I think that is an important distinction.

It is isolated from and not produced by, but that means nothing, many nursing women send their urine to the lab for this very purpose.

FYI, a pregnant woman can produce up to a million iu's of HCG every day.
No doubt some get paid for this and a million iu's probably is something she might get a paycheck from.
I think it was some place in Europe they do this.

Here is the problem I have with AI's and even suicide inhibitors like aromasin.
Post cycle you won't be producing much testosterone, so aromatase inhibition isnt a factor, or is seriously compromised.
Using a study based on eugonadal subjects hardly supports hypogonadal males post cycle with supressed HPTA.
If you are suggesting by your study that aromasin can elivate testosterone by said study with males that have compromised testicular activity then this flawed thinking.
Not to suggest said study isnt something to consider, but not applicable to post cycle recovery due to the fact that lipid profiles are compromised and an AI can potentially compromise this already compromised problem.
Driving estrogen too low can compromise mood, libido, bone loss, and other problems.

Question?
Why lower estrogen when estrogen is not the problem?
Testicular function is the problem and after that it is the pituitary that is not firing LH to the nuts.
Inhibiting estrogen at this point compromises quality of life, and health.

**Life** · 12-21-2010, 07:03 PM

The study wasn't exactly related I just thought it was interesting. What I am saying is that when used leading up to PCT aromasin increases sensitivity to LH thus HCG is more effective thus PCT is easier. Aromasin is beneficial to the lipid profile from what I understand. And too much estrogen can also cause some of said side effects. I'm not saying use AI's during PCT but leading into PCT aromasin is a very effective tool.

**hackskii** · 12-21-2010, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Life

The study wasn't exactly related I just thought it was interesting. What I am saying is that when used leading up to PCT aromasin increases sensitivity to LH thus HCG is more effective thus PCT is easier. Aromasin is beneficial to the lipid profile from what I understand. And too much estrogen can also cause some of said side effects. I'm not saying use AI's during PCT but leading into PCT aromasin is a very effective tool.

Ok, I took your post as something like this.
That is a good idea here is one better.

Nolvadex will aid in lipid profiles post cycle whereas aromisin will not.

I am a firm beliver in using an AI during a cycle and for many reasons including but not limited to:
less inhibition of the HPTA
Less estrogenic sides like gyno, bloat, and supression as estrogen is approx 200 times more inhibitory than testosterone.
Fat pattern stomach deposit.
Less water retention.
Among others.

But inhibiting estrogen post cycle when estrogen is not an issue is not warranted.
After all nolva helps lipid profiles whereas AI's compromise lipid profiles when already lipid profiles are already compromised.
Crazy.

Nolva actually hinders leydig desentization with the use of HCG.
HCG aromitizes quite heavily, nolva protects this post cycle.

All AI's aid in SHBG to benefit that of more free test during cycle, and supression.

**Life** · 12-21-2010, 08:30 PM

Again I wasn't advocating nor suggesting aromasin in PCT. I use it during the last two weeks of a cycle for the reasons previously stated. But you do bring up a valid point about using nolva during HCG therapy. It will stop an estrogen rebound if you have been using Adex during cycle and as you stated will help w/HCG. It is of importance to note that if you are using a progestin then nolva is a bad idea. Nolva will also lower GH and IGF levels, so that is a down side.

I found that study about aromasin's effect on cholesterol levels (Unlike adex and letro) that I was looking for:

Ann Oncol. 2004 Feb;15(2):211-7. Related Articles, Links

The effect of exemestane on serum lipid profile in postmenopausal women with metastatic breast cancer: a companion study to EORTC Trial 10951, 'Randomized phase II study in first line hormonal treatment for metastatic breast cancer with exemestane or Tamoxifen in postmenopausal patients'.

Atalay G, Dirix L, Biganzoli L, Beex L, Nooij M, Cameron D, Lohrisch C, Cufer T, Lobelle JP, Mattiaci MR, Piccart M, Paridaens R.

Jules Bordet Institute, Brussels, Belgium.

BACKGROUND: The impact of aromatase inhibitors (AIs) on non-cancer-related outcomes, which are known to be affected by oestrogens, has become increasingly important in postmenopausal women with hormone-dependent breast cancer. So far, data related to the effect of AIs on lipid profile in postmenopausal women is scarce. This study, as a companion substudy of an EORTC phase II trial (10951), evaluated the impact of exemestane, a steroidal aromatase inactivator, on the lipid profile of postmenopausal metastatic breast cancer (MBC) patients. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The EORTC trial 10951 randomised 122 postmenopausal breast cancer patients to exemestane (E) 25 mg (n = 62) or Tamoxifen (T) 20 mg (n = 60) once daily as a first-line treatment in the metastatic setting. Exemestane showed promising results in all the primary efficacy end points of the trial (response rate, clinical benefit rate and response duration), and it was well tolerated with low incidence of serious toxicity. As a secondary end point of this phase II trial, serum triglycerides (TRG), high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL), total cholesterol (TC), lipoprotein a (Lip a), and apolipoproteins (Apo) B and A1 were measured at baseline and while on therapy (at 8, 24 and 48 weeks) to assess the impact of exemestane and Tamoxifen on serum lipid profiles. Of the 122 randomised patients, those who had baseline and at least one other lipid assessment are included in the present analysis. The patients who received concomitant drugs that could affect lipid profile are included only if these drugs were administered throughout the study treatment. Increase or decrease in lipid parameters within 20% of baseline were considered as non-significant and thus unchanged. RESULTS: Seventy-two patients (36 in both arms) were included in the statistical analysis. The majority of patients had abnormal TC and normal TRG, HDL, Apo A1, Apo B and Lip a levels at baseline. Neither exemestane nor Tamoxifen had adverse effects on TC, HDL, Apo A1, Apo B or Lip a levels at 8, 24 and 48 weeks of treatment. Exemestane and Tamoxifen had opposite effects on TRG levels: exemestane lowered while Tamoxifen increased TRG levels over time. There were too few patients with normal baseline TC and abnormal TRG, HDL, Apo A1, Apo B and Lip a levels to allow for assessment of E's impact on these subsets. The atherogenic risk determined by Apo A1:Apo B and TC:HDL ratios remained unchanged throughout the treatment period in both the E and T arms. CONCLUSIONS: Overall, exemestane has no detrimental effect on cholesterol levels and the atherogenic indices, which are well-known risk factors for coronary artery disease. In addition, it has a beneficial effect on TRG levels. These data, coupled with E's excellent efficacy and tolerability, support further exploration of its potential in the metastatic, adjuvant and chemopreventive setting.

**CanadaGear** · 12-22-2010, 08:09 AM

Very good post.

**hackskii** · 12-22-2010, 08:27 AM

My friend had his HDL post cycle of 5, mine was 15 at one time.

Its nice to use studies, but lets face it, many men that have been on for some time have some serious issues with lipid profiles.
With a HDL of 5, any compromise at all would increase risk.

**Life** · 12-22-2010, 10:50 AM

Yeah we're all different. The way I see it is we're all blind men with a gun and the studies shout "marco polo." So at least we have some idea of where to shoot.

**hackskii** · 12-22-2010, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Life

Yeah we're all different. The way I see it is we're all blind men with a gun and the studies shout "marco polo." So at least we have some idea of where to shoot.

Damn, I never heard that one before, that is brilliant.......lol
That would be a hell of a game to play huh?
One shot for each polo........
That makes for a nice movie theme......
That just caught me as funny, reps man, I like that.

**braveheart07** · 12-24-2010, 12:31 AM

So since exemestane does not harm lipid profiles on most ppl...why is arimidex the most talked about AI to use on cycle?Seems like exemestane would be the better choice...

**chronicelite** · 12-24-2010, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by braveheart07

So since exemestane does not harm lipid profiles on most ppl...why is arimidex the most talked about AI to use on cycle?Seems like exemestane would be the better choice...

Yep, it's just newer and less known. I think eventually Aromasin will completely replace Adex. Adex can also cause rebound, where as Aromasin will not, or maybe just a slight rebound.

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