TRT guys, blasting, and to many RBCs

**Glycomann** · 01-07-2011, 07:17 PM

At the blood bank today my BP was 142/76. That freaked me out a little. Then they measured my hemoglobin and it was 19.1!!! yikes!!!! The chick asked if I had any bone pain or achy joints. I said no I feel great and I do! Then she giggled and said well I guess it's just time to donate. I'm getting to old for this shit. Older guys have real problems with androgens and hematology. Bhasin just published a paper a few months ago that shows hepcidin, the major control protein for iron absorption, is about double in older men. He showed that it's normally almost double in older men and test decreases it in older men much worse than in younger men. Lower hepcidin translates into more iron absorption and more hemoglobin and red cells. In other words older men are much more susceptible to erythrocytosis than younger men and I seem to have it pretty bad. Time to taper down and cycle off for a while.

**heavyiron** · 01-07-2011, 07:33 PM

What has your dose/compounds been recently?

**Glycomann** · 01-07-2011, 08:18 PM

Not much HI. I'm a good responder on lower doses so I've pretty much always been on the low end of things. I was on 300 mg Test C and 300 mg of NPP a week. That's actually considered a blast for me. Right now I'm on 200-250 mg a week of Test depending which bottle I grab. I usually have to go off all androgens once a year for 10-12 weeks to reset. I've read this is not uncommon. It sucks though b/c I loose a lot of size. I would prefer to stay blast and cruise until after the coming summer. Ideas?

**ZECH** · 01-07-2011, 09:29 PM

I know EQ is bad for this......never heard many issues from just test alone, but I guess it could. Wonder if NPP contributes to this much?

**Glycomann** · 01-07-2011, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by dg806

I know EQ is bad for this......never heard many issues from just test alone, but I guess it could. Wonder if NPP contributes to this much?

All anabolic steroids do it. Some were and still are used in cancer chemotherapy and anemia just for that action. deca durabolin, the cousin of NPP, is used in kidney failure to boost RBCs as well as increase nitrogen retention. Testosterone was used in the great wars to raise RBCs in the battle field setting in injury.

**ZECH** · 01-07-2011, 10:33 PM

I looked and normal hemoglobin is 14-18 g/dl. Yours is barely high. I would not worry too much. Just keep up on the labs!

**ZECH** · 01-07-2011, 10:37 PM

Also stay highly hydrated. Dehydration makes the situation worse.

**chronicelite** · 01-07-2011, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Glycomann

Not much HI. I'm a good responder on lower doses so I've pretty much always been on the low end of things. I was on 300 mg Test C and 300 mg of NPP a week. That's actually considered a blast for me. Right now I'm on 200-250 mg a week of Test depending which bottle I grab. I usually have to go off all androgens once a year for 10-12 weeks to reset. I've read this is not uncommon. It sucks though b/c I loose a lot of size. I would prefer to stay blast and cruise until after the coming summer. Ideas?

You should try adding IGF-1 and insulin to your PCT.
I think in the future, this will be a common addition to all PCT's as a great way to maintain gains. I plan on employing this once I come off.

**Glycomann** · 01-08-2011, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by chronicelite

You should try adding IGF-1 and insulin to your PCT.
I think in the future, this will be a common addition to all PCT's as a great way to maintain gains. I plan on employing this once I come off.

I've been thinking about IGF-1 for a long time. I'm a little apprehensive about it b/c I am near 50. I am just not clear on cancer risks with this compound. I do know that it makes many of the tissue's cells of the body proliferate. I'm just not sure that's a good idea to be pushing at 50 and older. I've always been a bit of a dare devil though so who knows. Insulin is out of the question though.

**Glycomann** · 01-08-2011, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by dg806

I looked and normal hemoglobin is 14-18 g/dl. Yours is barely high. I would not worry too much. Just keep up on the labs!

My lab range is 12.5-17. Hemaglobin (Hg) values are about linear with hematocrit. Last labs I was 18.4 (Hg) and an Hct of 54.6 with a top of the range of 50.0. At the blood bank I am usually 17 Hg or a little higher. 19.1 is a big jump and probably means my Hct is up over 55. This is considered erythrocytosis. The values over the past year have been creeping up. Get to 60 and you're high risk for stroke, blood clots (thrombus) and heart attack.
You're right about hydration. Always stay well hydrated. Also a good idea to take 80 mg aspirin a day as I do.

All you guys should keep an eye on your bloods. Hematology is a big one that AAS guys don't really think about. Mostly what we talk about is lipids and liver values. Erythrocytosis is the most common adverse effect in TRT treatment so that translates directly to AAS use and abuse even more so since the amounts of androgen used is many fold higher and erythrocytosis icreases with dose. The thickened blood drives up BP and RHR. These are stresses on kidneys heart and other organs. At minimum we should all donate blood every 3-4 months on cycle or off.

**heavyiron** · 01-08-2011, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Glycomann

Not much HI. I'm a good responder on lower doses so I've pretty much always been on the low end of things. I was on 300 mg Test C and 300 mg of NPP a week. That's actually considered a blast for me. Right now I'm on 200-250 mg a week of Test depending which bottle I grab. I usually have to go off all androgens once a year for 10-12 weeks to reset. I've read this is not uncommon. It sucks though b/c I loose a lot of size. I would prefer to stay blast and cruise until after the coming summer. Ideas?

Not sure what you mean by "reset" but I am guessing it's not a scientific condition. =)

I would not come off at your age. It's a recipe for muscle loss. Since you are fully aware of the risks to your liver, lipids, and hematocrit and you know how to mitigate negative conditions without going off, you can safely stay on. Your cruise dose might be able to come down a touch but without labs I am not sure. I would target a Total T of no less than 500ng/dl if you want to "reset".

In the Elite section I recently posted several papers on heart health and T replacement. Replacement T is beneficial to men.

**Glycomann** · 01-08-2011, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by heavyiron

Not sure what you mean by "reset" but I am guessing it's not a scientific condition. =)

I would not come off at your age. It's a recipe for muscle loss. Since you are fully aware of the risks to your liver, lipids, and hematocrit and you know how to mitigate negative conditions without going off, you can safely stay on. Your cruise dose might be able to come down a touch but without labs I am not sure. I would target a Total T of no less than 500ng/dl if you want to "reset".

In the Elite section I recently posted several papers on heart health and T replacement. Replacement T is beneficial to men.

Often good TRT docs have to take their patients off due to presentation of erythrocytosis. Health is more important that a few lbs of muscle mass. I don't know where your Hct and Hg are but many TRT blast and cruise guys get into this situation where these values go up and stay up until completely coming off androgens or giving more frequent blood donations or blood lettings. I'd love to stay on forever but some of us are prone to progressive erythrocytosis. Nice plug for your premium gig by the way. I'm sure there is a wealth of information there.

**heavyiron** · 01-08-2011, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Glycomann

Often good TRT docs have to take their patients off due to presentation of erythrocytosis. Health is more important that a few lbs of muscle mass. I don't know where your Hct and Hg are but many TRT blast and cruise guys get into this situation where these values go up and stay up until completely coming off androgens or giving more frequent blood donations or blood lettings. I'd love to stay on forever but some of us are prone to progressive erythrocytosis. Nice plug for your premium gig by the way. I'm sure there is a wealth of information there.

There are 3 standard responses to high Hematocrit IF it is caused by TRT. 1. Decrease T dose, 2. give blood and 3. the craziest one is to stop treatment =)

I would find the lowest dose T you can to sustain 500ng/dl and run that a few months. Giving blood is another great option. Going off has negative health implications for men who have low T so that should only be done as a last resort.

Here is an excerpt from another paper I posted in the Elite section today.

Erythrocytosis — Erythrocytosis is a common adverse effect of testosterone administration, particularly with testosterone ester injections [36]. The hematocrit should be measured before initiating testosterone treatment, and if it is elevated, the cause should be sought before testosterone treatment is initiated. The hematocrit should be measured again after three months, and then yearly. If it increases above the upper limit of normal, a cause should be sought, and if none is found, the dose of testosterone should be decreased or stopped if the hematocrit is severely elevated, eg >58 percent. The hematocrit should be re-evaluated two months after the decrease or discontinuation. If the hematocrit normalizes, a lower dose of testosterone should be continued or restarted. If the hematocrit cannot be kept below the upper limit of normal, even when the serum testosterone concentration is at the low end of the normal range during testosterone treatment, phlebotomy can be considered.

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