Thread: looking for advice on cycle

Originally Posted by mark32

week 1-4 anadrol 50 (one a day)
week 1-12 test e 250 (two injections a week tues, sat?)
week 12-14 pct-nolvadex or clomid, which ever is better im not sure
dosage at 20/20/10/10
im a little confused about the pct. do i have to immediately start the pct at the end of the cycle if i plan to do another cycle after a short break?
also i was wondering about hgh and anyones thoughts on that and how to take it.

I think that your cycle looks fine. This is a good novice cycle. You may want to have an AI while on cycle just in case of estro sides become a problem. I like aromasin at 12.5 mg every other day or even every third day and adjust if need be some people go up to 25mg a day but that should not need such a high dose on this cycle. Aromasin is awesome for pct as well with nolva and clomid. I personally am not big on HCG though many swear by it. But here is a article about aromasin for PCT

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now….
Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!
So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.
With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:
WeekNolvadexHCGAromasinVitamin E120mgs/day500iu/day20mgs/day1,000iu/day220mgs/day500iu/day20mgs/day1,000iu/day320mgs/day500iu/day20mgs/day1,000iu/day420mgs/day20mgs/day520mgs/day620mgs/dayReferences

1. Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th ed. John W. Hole jr
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3. Endocrinology. 1995 Feb;136(2):536-42
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5. Treat Endocrinol. 2004;3(2):105-15. Review.
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8. Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.m Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM
9. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
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19. Kinetics of the steroidogenic response of the testis to stimulation by hCG. V. Blockade of 17-20 lyase induced by hCG is an age-dependent phenomenon inducible by pre-treatment with hCG. Forest MG, Roulier R
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Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm#ixzz1Do7YymZX

Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for
Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)!
So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.
That leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.
But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?
I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.
Aromasin with Nolvadex
I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.
This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.
Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?
Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors
To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).
Conclusion
Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).
Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.
References:

1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
2. 2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
3. [Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism] Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
4. Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
5. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
6. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
7. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80
8. .J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91.
9. The Oncologist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 126–136, April 2004
10. Zilembo N., Noberasco C., Bajetta E., Martinetti A., Mariani L., Orefici S. Endocrinological and clinical evaluation of exemestane, a new steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Br. J. Cancer, 72: 1007-1012, 1995
11. Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 10, 1943-1948, March 2004
12. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956
    Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/aromasin-exemestane.htm#ixzz1DoAiz97v

Does "week 1-12 test e 250 (two injections a week tues, sat?)" mean 500mg/week?

If so, good. If not, bad.

I would also wait 7-10 days after last injection to start PCT. Disregard the numbers in my first post as for what dosages to use for your PCT it did not come out right when I posted it. It was supposed to be a graph. I am not knowledgeable enough about HGH to give you any sound advice hopefully someone else can help there.

Use clomid. Nolva is worthless, except for possibly with gyno problems.

Nolva also helps LH but clomid is better for reproductive system it is best to use both with Aromasin.

wow that is a lot of knowledge, i really apreciate it. i still have some more research to do though because i am not sure on what doses to take on any of the pct. thank you for all of your advice!

Originally Posted by TGB1987

Nolva also helps LH but clomid is better for reproductive system it is best to use both with Aromasin.

Nolva is counter-productive as a Pct drug. I don't know a single serious lifter who uses it in PCT. It lowers GH and IGF levels, which is not what you want during PCT.

well i heard nova was good for gynecomastia from the anadrol, which is what i am worried about the most. how worried should i be about that is it a common big problem?

i see clomid is prescibed to women to induce ovulation, but can also counteract male infertility and breast milk production.. is suppose that would work. weather or not i use nolvadex or clomid will probably be decided on what i can get. does anyone have any advice on the dosage on either and also the aromasin? and i am assuming this is on a 4 week duration?