Thread: Opinions on this cycle....

Increase the test as the test/tren ratio is a little off. Maybe this dose works for you though?

Watch the BP with the dbol and tren at the same time also.

Thanks CT. I am hearing more and more that the Test does not necessarily have to be that much greater than the Tren dosage, as long as the Test is in there somewhere. Do you hear of this too? I've read that the Tren can work better if the Test dose is not so high that it is smothering the Tren's effectiveness. Does this sound right?

I expect my BP to go up some - probably into Pre-hypertension range but I'll be checking it bi-weekly in hopes that it doesn't go above that range into the all-out Hypertension zone.

Originally Posted by BigBird

Thanks CT. I am hearing more and more that the Test does not necessarily have to be that much greater than the Tren dosage, as long as the Test is in there somewhere. Do you hear of this too? I've read that the Tren can work better if the Test dose is not so high that it is smothering the Tren's effectiveness. Does this sound right?

I expect my BP to go up some - probably into Pre-hypertension range but I'll be checking it bi-weekly in hopes that it doesn't go above that range into the all-out Hypertension zone.

When I used 19nors I had to double the test just to function....but that's just me.

Honestly being 5,8ft and standing at 220 lbs with 10-11% there's nothing to question.

- Really glad to see people know how to plan cycles, this is on point from every aspect, but let me just point some things out.

- Generally i don't recommend HCG use because isn't a very nice drug, but this is the type of cycle that it's highly recommended unless you will have a hard time recovering your HPTA:

Weeks 7/9-12 --> 1500 IU/week (split in 2 doses)
Weeks 13-14 --> 3000IU/week (split in 2 doses)

- Using Winstrol while on Trenbolone, your lipids will take many weeks to recover from the hit, if you aren't doing contest prepartion it's non recommended to use it. Instead you could do it like this:

Weeks 1-12 --> Test E. 500mg/week
Weeks 1-4/6 --> D-bol 30-50mg ED
Weeks 5-12 --> Tren Hex 250-300mg/week

PS Winstrol depot in many ways isn't a good option( UGL labs carry higher risk of infections because water preparation of AAS is difficult to produce + the 17aa methylation is still present so toxicity in both liver & lipids is pretty much the same with the oral version)

- You need to run some supplement for liver and definately for lipids - if you want i can make some suggestions.

- For BP i suggest Aspiring at 100-200mg ED or Hawthorne Berry Extract at 500-1500mg ED.

- Running aromatizable and 19nor compounds you will need and AI and a Dopamine Agonist respectively:
DA --> Pramixepole at 0,15-0,30mg ED OR Bromocriptine at 2,5-5mg ED
AI --> Arimidex at 0,25-0,50mg EOD OR Aromasin at 12,5-25mg ED

- IMHO Proviron it's a useless drug in many areas - i can state some if you want.

- For PCT i would suggest:

Weeks 15-18 --> Clomid 100 | 50 | 50 | 50 | 25mg ED
Weeks 15-18 --> Nolva 40 | 20 | 20 | 20 | 10mg ED

PS HCG use is completely wrong in PCT - i can explain it further if you want.

Thanks for your input Yaz. Much appreciated. I should've mentioned that I always take liver support while using any orals and you are right - even the depot version of Winny is hepatoxic. In addition, the Hawthorne Berry would be a good supplement. The Winstrol I have happens to be 50mg amps from Zambon in Spain; one of the reliable producers of authentic Winstrol Depot. Therefore, I know it's sterile, etc. I have always noticed a difference when incorporating Proviron vs. no Proviron in every cycle. For some reason, my body takes well to Proviron so I'd like to keep using it, but I am curious on your perspective of the Proviron.
Believe it or not, I have never used HCG and have always recovered fully from every cycle although I do realize that recovery at 35yoa is a little different than recovery at 25 yoa. I know quite a few that use HCG about 2-3 weeks into their cycle and then continue using it throughout pct and they claim it helps them to recover quicker. I'm receptive to learning the preferred method for using hcg since I cannot speak of its benefit firsthand. However, I may cruise after this blast cycle until the next blast cycle for my own personal reasons. Please explain why HCG is not ideal for including in pct.

Do you really think it's necessary to run the test at a higher dose than the Tren. I've heard/read it both ways. That is, some argue a higher test dose will compete with the Tren's effectiveness and others say it must be higher than the Tren in order to "function" correctly. I ran them in equal doses back in 2004 (along with Halotestin) and didn't notice any problems in the "performance" area. I've also heard it's possible to run a maintenance dose of Test - say, 250-300mg - while Tren-ning at 300-400mg and this could/would be effective.

Thanks.

Don't mention it.

1) When it comes to Winstrol, i didn't say anything about reliable sources, but rather than UGL sources - if you gonna do it i highly suggest to go with actual pharma grade, i would but that's just me.

Zambon/Desma is one of the top pharma grades, so good choice.

2) Proviron has pretty much 3 (known) properties:
- Slight anti-e properties - but by no means for PCT instead of SERMs
- Some AI - but should be used while on aromatizable compounds during cycle in decent doses(ex. 500mg Test E. /week)
- It binds very good with the SHBG and leaves more free testosterone available - the only thing that has some decent value if Proviron going to be used.

3) I told you my opinion about HCG, i never ever recommend it unless the cycle meets specific criteria - which this one dose. If you indeed your HPTA recovers (verified by bloodwork that is + especially while on 19nor derivatives ) in some decent time like 1-3 months after cycle without(!) counting PCT so be it, don't use it.
- Plus your 35 and IMO good for you having the physique you say you have without even being on TRT - so that's another reason for me to suggest you this drug.
- HCG while on PCT is plain wrong and people should learn about drugs' mechanisms of action before they use them - HCG mimics LH to keep the testes on from complete shutdown it has absolutely nothing to do with the kickstart of natural(!) gonadotropin production, furthermore it's use on PCT it simple extends the shutdown = cancelling the whole meaning of PCT process.

4) I do not support the blast and cruise theore if you aren't on TRT, because i think it isn't that much helpful. The body has it's own homeostasis, the difficult and right (IMHO) thing to do is try to keep as much gains as possible without being "on" year around - obviously being on low dose Test (at least 5 times the natural physiological dose that the body produces) you won't lose much of the gains but the longer you do it the closer you are to TRT, many people seem to love it but (speaking in general) injecting for live before you hit 35 or for many many people even 30, isn't a very nice option in my book.

5) Many people seem to suggest ratios while on Test + 19nor derivatives like 2:1 etc, it's a rule of thumb but nothing - the right thing you should get out of it, is that it's advisable to run higher dose of Test in comparison to 19nor to allow the body to function more properly both mentally and physically.

6) Love the fact that there are people like you with this type of stats, that run low amount of drugs and generally fans of "less is more" theory" which i agree with - congrats.

7) Sorry for the long-ass post but i had to, cuz you asked some interesting questions


P.S. Thanks for the compliment, the rep and the vote of confidence -much appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Yaz!

Don't mention it.

1) When it comes to Winstrol, i didn't say anything about reliable sources, but rather than UGL sources - if you gonna do it i highly suggest to go with actual pharma grade, i would but that's just me.

Zambon/Desma is one of the top pharma grades, so good choice.

2) Proviron has pretty much 3 (known) properties:
- Slight anti-e properties - but by no means for PCT instead of SERMs
- Some AI - but should be used while on aromatizable compounds during cycle in decent doses(ex. 500mg Test E. /week)
- It binds very good with the SHBG and leaves more free testosterone available - the only thing that has some decent value if Proviron going to be used.

3) I told you my opinion about HCG, i never ever recommend it unless the cycle meets specific criteria - which this one dose. If you indeed your HPTA recovers (verified by bloodwork that is + especially while on 19nor derivatives ) in some decent time like 1-3 months after cycle without(!) counting PCT so be it, don't use it.
- Plus your 35 and IMO good for you having the physique you say you have without even being on TRT - so that's another reason for me to suggest you this drug.
- HCG while on PCT is plain wrong and people should learn about drugs' mechanisms of action before they use them - HCG mimics LH to keep the testes on from complete shutdown it has absolutely nothing to do with the kickstart of natural(!) gonadotropin production, furthermore it's use on PCT it simple extends the shutdown = cancelling the whole meaning of PCT process.

4) I do not support the blast and cruise theore if you aren't on TRT, because i think it isn't that much helpful. The body has it's own homeostasis, the difficult and right (IMHO) thing to do is try to keep as much gains as possible without being "on" year around - obviously being on low dose Test (at least 5 times the natural physiological dose that the body produces) you won't lose much of the gains but the longer you do it the closer you are to TRT, many people seem to love it but (speaking in general) injecting for live before you hit 35 or for many many people even 30, isn't a very nice option in my book.

5) Many people seem to suggest ratios while on Test + 19nor derivatives like 2:1 etc, it's a rule of thumb but nothing - the right thing you should get out of it, is that it's advisable to run higher dose of Test in comparison to 19nor to allow the body to function more properly both mentally and physically.

6) Love the fact that there are people like you with this type of stats, that run low amount of drugs and generally fans of "less is more" theory" which i agree with - congrats.

7) Sorry for the long-ass post but i had to, cuz you asked some interesting questions

ive heard proviron can hep with water retention. is this also true?

Originally Posted by RoidRage9

ive heard proviron can hep with water retention. is this also true?

Originally Posted by Yaz!

2) Proviron has pretty much 3 (known) properties:
- Slight anti-e properties - but by no means for PCT instead of SERMs
- Some AI - but should be used while on aromatizable compounds during cycle in decent doses(ex. 500mg Test E. /week)
- It binds very good with the SHBG and leaves more free testosterone available - the only thing that has some decent value if Proviron going to be used.

Yeap

Yes, I've always understood the aqueous solutions such as Winstrol Depot, Test Suspension, etc. can be more easily contaminated and so on.

The two things I've liked about Proviron is 1) helps/seems to help keep me hard, that is, minimize water retention and 2) its binding capacity with SHBG which, as you mentioned, leaves more free testosterone available. (not to mention, 24/7 wood which is sometims annoying, especially when walking around the office trying not to be noticed in that way, lol.

I've always suggested and used a ratio of 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 when using test and Deca but there are those who suggest Tren can be "excused" from this rule of thumb despite the fact it's a 19Nor derivative. With that being said, I probably won't run the test 2:1 but more like 1:5 or a hair under that. I have always been fond of using reasonable doses as opposed to figures such as 1500mg of Test EW, 700mg Tren, etc. and similar astronomical doses. There are those who use Anadrol at 100mg-150mg ED but I wouldn't go over 50mg ED b/c I have never had a reason to. (Haven't used it in a long time and probably will not use Drol ever again but just making a point regarding doses).

True, blast/cruise is most ideal for those who are already on trt/hrt so this is a decison I'll have to think long and hard about. Maybe I suffer from "Muscle Dysmorphia"? Worried about losing that "edge" but a fact of life. Haven't competed in BB since 1997 and won't compete again - no way to make the time required for everything involved. Just competing with myself at this point - if that makes any sense.

Thanks for expanding on the hcg topic.

Your cycle layout looks good.

3) I told you my opinion about HCG, i never ever recommend it unless the cycle meets specific criteria - which this one dose. If you indeed your HPTA recovers (verified by bloodwork that is + especially while on 19nor derivatives ) in some decent time like 1-3 months after cycle without(!) counting PCT so be it, don't use it.
- Plus your 35 and IMO good for you having the physique you say you have without even being on TRT - so that's another reason for me to suggest you this drug.
- HCG while on PCT is plain wrong and people should learn about drugs' mechanisms of action before they use them - HCG mimics LH to keep the testes on from complete shutdown it has absolutely nothing to do with the kickstart of natural(!) gonadotropin production, furthermore it's use on PCT it simple extends the shutdown = cancelling the whole meaning of PCT process.


hmmm. something to think about. where did you get this info?

Originally Posted by Yaz!

3) I told you my opinion about HCG, i never ever recommend it unless the cycle meets specific criteria - which this one dose. If you indeed your HPTA recovers (verified by bloodwork that is + especially while on 19nor derivatives ) in some decent time like 1-3 months after cycle without(!) counting PCT so be it, don't use it.
- Plus your 35 and IMO good for you having the physique you say you have without even being on TRT - so that's another reason for me to suggest you this drug.
- HCG while on PCT is plain wrong and people should learn about drugs' mechanisms of action before they use them - HCG mimics LH to keep the testes on from complete shutdown it has absolutely nothing to do with the kickstart of natural(!) gonadotropin production, furthermore it's use on PCT it simple extends the shutdown = cancelling the whole meaning of PCT process.
[/B]

hmmm. something to think about, where did you get the info?

Originally Posted by BigBird

Yes, I've always understood the aqueous solutions such as Winstrol Depot, Test Suspension, etc. can be more easily contaminated and so on.

The two things I've liked about Proviron is 1) helps/seems to help keep me hard, that is, minimize water retention and 2) its binding capacity with SHBG which, as you mentioned, leaves more free testosterone available. (not to mention, 24/7 wood which is sometims annoying, especially when walking around the office trying not to be noticed in that way, lol.

I've always suggested and used a ratio of 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 when using test and Deca but there are those who suggest Tren can be "excused" from this rule of thumb despite the fact it's a 19Nor derivative. With that being said, I probably won't run the test 2:1 but more like 1:5 or a hair under that. I have always been fond of using reasonable doses as opposed to figures such as 1500mg of Test EW, 700mg Tren, etc. and similar astronomical doses. There are those who use Anadrol at 100mg-150mg ED but I wouldn't go over 50mg ED b/c I have never had a reason to. (Haven't used it in a long time and probably will not use Drol ever again but just making a point regarding doses).

True, blast/cruise is most ideal for those who are already on trt/hrt so this is a decison I'll have to think long and hard about. Maybe I suffer from "Muscle Dysmorphia"? Worried about losing that "edge" but a fact of life. Haven't competed in BB since 1997 and won't compete again - no way to make the time required for everything involved. Just competing with myself at this point - if that makes any sense.

Thanks for expanding on the hcg topic.

Yes i forgot to add this, if it is dosed at a decent dose like 75-125mg ED it has some hardening effects indeed.

Excellent way of thinking - many congrats

IMO you don't have to think it that long, when in like 4+ years you getting your values lower and lower then consider TRT - no need to worry/hurry.
It makes lot's of sense especially with your mentality that's very admirable.

Originally Posted by SUPERFLY1234

hmmm. something to think about, where did you get the info?

It's not very hard to obtain this kind of information, you can google HCG and SERMs and read on their mechanisms of action and compare - not trying to make fun of you.

Good corresponding with you Yaz. Is that your pic in your avatar? If so, you must be a competitive BB.

Originally Posted by BigBird

Good corresponding with you Yaz. Is that your pic in your avatar? If so, you must be a competitive BB.

It was fun for me too, glad i could help.
Nope but i would loooove to look like him - Dennis Newman check him out on Google & Youtube, plain ridiculous genetics

Originally Posted by BigBird

Ok ladies and gentlemen, the following cycle may seem a bit bizarre b/c it doesn't fit the traditonal mass or cut cycle stacks; however, I'm thinking there could be some interesting gains from the few different "food" groups below. No need to question my cycle history - substantial, nor my diet - on point, nor my age - 34 - will turn 35 in May. Just curious as to what my fellow IM comrades perspective is on cycle below. Current physical stats are 5'8", 220, BF 10-11%. Looking for gains such rip up and harden more and obtain a little more mass although I do not want to go above 225 - 230. Want to keep water renention to a minimum even though I'm running the Dbol but I'm planning on being disciplined with diet to assist with that. Haven't started the cycle below as of yet but probably within next week or so.


Week 1-12 - Test E/Cyp: 300-400mg EW
Week 1-8 - Tren Hex: 300mg EW
Week 1-4 - DBol Week 40mg ED
Week 6/7 - 12 - Winstrol Depot 50mg ED (Zambon 50mg amps)
Proviron 25mg throughout
Adex on hand, perhaps 0.5mg EOD
Considered running the Dbol with the Winny-V but probably not.

PCT: ? Maybe not as I'm considering bridging with 200-250mg Test for X number of Weeks until next blast. If I decide to run PCT, it will consist of Clomid. No hcg, sorry. (I know I know).

Looks good Bird...I would only change two things:

More test as CT recommended...I would bump to at least 500mg/wk.

Also, Hcg is a must when recovering from 19-nors, so I would add this to your cycle as well.

Other than that...good cycle brotha!