Thread: Test-E/Aromasin/Torem *10wk First Cycle*

You're a bit young, but it sounds like you won't be running this for a while and you're gonna do what you're gonna do so I'll give some input.

Honestly it looks pretty good to me, I don't think you'll need finasteride though, unless you're seriously prone to hair loss you shouldn't see anything at your age and with this cycle. Also I'd throw in an oral like dbol for the first 4 weeks. Might want to bump your aromasin up to 12.5 but you can determine that yourself after you see how you react. You can do a decent cycle for far less than the price you have outlined though.


Also I think you should be lifting more like 5 days a week, especially on cycle. You could probably even get away with 6 while ON. 3 is pretty minimal, also your routine looks like it could use some work. I go with a split like 1. chest/tris 2. back/bi's 3. legs 4. shoulders/abs/forearms and whatever else I feel could use some extra work. Take one or two days off and then repeat.

Yeah I was concerned about my age also Digitalash. I'm thinking another year of training to lay down more ground work and learn to power clean and snatch better couldn't hurt. Thanks for the input though.

I am particularly worried about MPB because I had my DNA analysed and I got this result:
"Has the A version of rs6625162 (OR = 1.17) and the AA genotype for rs6113491 (OR = 1.77). Overall, this set of genotypes confers 2.07 times higher than typical odds of male pattern baldness in Europeans"

I think I'll pass on the DBol for my first run through. I would like to keep the hormonal side simple to see how I respond and I don't mind waiting a bit while the test-e ramps up. I think I would prefer Anavar to kickstart at 50mg ED for 4 weeks. Less toxicity, oral, no increase in DHT, etc. This way if I shed hair I know that test-e (and AAS) are probably off limits for me.

I agree that 6.25mg Aromasin may be a bit low but I would like to establish the lowest effective dose to minimize sides from low E2.

One of the reasons I am very attracted to the idea of AAS/PH is the lowered cortisol and increased glycogen replenishment. I would love to train more often but if I try to go more than 3-4 days a week I get very lethargic. Unenjoyable.

Also, you propose a 5 day Body-building style split as opposed to a 5x5 compound movement programme such as the one I am currently training. Is there a reason to switch training styles while on cycle? To go from two days a week lower body to only one seems counter intuitive to me. However, I am uneducated and inexperienced in AAS appropriate training programmes.

At 22-23 is Test-E/Aromasin/Torem far superior than HDrol/Aromasin/Torem?

I believe 24-25 is the general reccomendation to wait for before starting AAS, I think you could get away with 23 as long as you're very careful and do everything right. Someone else may want to chime in here.

Of course everyone's different so if you feel 3 days a week is your "sweet spot" as far as training frequency then I'd say listen to your body. Personally I feel ok training 4-5 days a week, and now that I'm on cycle (first) 6 seems to be no problem. I'd say you could definitely bump it up another day or two while ON, again you'll just have to see how you feel. You want to balance trying to get as much out of the cycle as possible while not overtraining and ending up negatively effecting your progress.

MPB, can't really comment. From everything I hear it's generally not an issue with test only cycles, until you've been doing them for a while. Even then whether you're genetically prone to it really becomes a factor. I wasn't aware there was a test for that, but it seems you definitely do have the genes for it. I suppose keep the finasteride on hand just in case but keep in mind that it comes with some side effects of its own.

As for your routine, that comes down to your goals. 5x5 is more of a strength routine AFAIK and juding by your inclusion of olympic style lifts I'm guessing that's more what you're looking for. I'm really not familiar with that side of things, I've always stuck to a more bodybuilding geared approach while natural. So I haven't really changed anything, besides increasing volume and frequency etc. If gaining mass is what you're looking for though that's the way I'd go. Compound lifts are great for overall development and strength, but at least for me when I did nothing but compounds my arms and shoulders were lagging pretty severely. Back/chest/legs grew great but I ended up not looking very good because of small arms/delts. Compounds should always be the base of your routine but I'd throw in some isolation exercises wherever you personally need them. Again if strength and oly lifts are your goal that may not be important to you.

As for the last part I'd say test will always be superior to hdrol. Stack the hdrol with it for the beginning of the cycle if you like, but test should always be your base.

Originally Posted by xJolt

Yeah I was concerned about my age also Digitalash. I'm thinking another year of training to lay down more ground work and learn to power clean and snatch better couldn't hurt. Thanks for the input though.

I am particularly worried about MPB because I had my DNA analysed and I got this result:
"Has the A version of rs6625162 (OR = 1.17) and the AA genotype for rs6113491 (OR = 1.77). Overall, this set of genotypes confers 2.07 times higher than typical odds of male pattern baldness in Europeans"

I think I'll pass on the DBol for my first run through. I would like to keep the hormonal side simple to see how I respond and I don't mind waiting a bit while the test-e ramps up. I think I would prefer Anavar to kickstart at 50mg ED for 4 weeks. Less toxicity, oral, no increase in DHT, etc. This way if I shed hair I know that test-e (and AAS) are probably off limits for me.

I agree that 6.25mg Aromasin may be a bit low but I would like to establish the lowest effective dose to minimize sides from low E2.

One of the reasons I am very attracted to the idea of AAS/PH is the lowered cortisol and increased glycogen replenishment. I would love to train more often but if I try to go more than 3-4 days a week I get very lethargic. Unenjoyable.

Also, you propose a 5 day Body-building style split as opposed to a 5x5 compound movement programme such as the one I am currently training. Is there a reason to switch training styles while on cycle? To go from two days a week lower body to only one seems counter intuitive to me. However, I am uneducated and inexperienced in AAS appropriate training programmes.

At 22-23 is Test-E/Aromasin/Torem far superior than HDrol/Aromasin/Torem?

is your bf 1% or 12 im confused?
and youre cycle looks like the one im about to start even the same dosing on the aromasin, minus the finasteride, but i have it on hand
22 a bit young if you chose to do it you should research more

Originally Posted by LightBearer

is your bf 1% or 12 im confused?
and youre cycle looks like the one im about to start even the same dosing on the aromasin, minus the finasteride, but i have it on hand
22 a bit young if you chose to do it you should research more

Yeah I assumed that was a typo lol, he's definitely not 1-2%

Cycle looks pretty good. I would run the test cycle of the5hdrol. If you are going to do you it you might as well do it right. I would try to increase training frequency on cycle because you should be able to handle it. Your setup looks good minus the fina and switch out the torem for Clomid. What is your reasoning on using Torem over clomid? Your age is young but I have seen much worse. Just try to really understand what you are getting into by using. I think you are well on your way. I think your aromasin dose might work good for you because 6.25 ed is similar to 12.5 eod which is what I usually recommend on cycle. You did your homework here. Think about and if you want to run it at least you have a good setup. It sounds like you have the right attitude by not wanting to overdo it your first cycle. Slowly progress into more advanced cycles. By the way anavar is not a good kickstart IMO it is much better at the tail end of a cycle. I wouldn't overconcentrate on losing your hair. It happens to many men and if it is going to happen it is going to happen no matter what you do IMO. Being Bald will not change who you are but I am sure you know that. Do what makes you happy and don't let little things like your hairline bring you down. Good Luck

Digitalash: You described exactly why I'm debating switching off the 5x5 on cycle. My legs/core/chest/back is looking great but its getting obvious my arms and shoulders are disproportionally small. No direct arm/shoulder work is probably the reason. Perhaps my added 4th day will be a arm/shoulder 3x10x12 day.
Also, good to hear your thoughts on MPB and Test-E.
23 sounds about right to me.

1% I'm doing the super tuff guy cut

Anyways, Thanks TGB1987 for the comments.

I'll leave out the anavar (expensive anyways); I think I'll do Test-E only the first time around.

I've heard Clomid acts more in the pituitary and testes and is therefore better act restarting the HPTA whilst Nolvadex has better antagonism at the breast so it provides better protection from gyno. My understanding (Caution: Broscience), is that Torem acts as a strong E antagonist at the breast/pituitary and a E agonist at the testes; therefore it provides the best of both. Furthermore, resent studies have shown that Torem is significantly less toxic and has less side effects than either Clomid or Nolvadex.

So just a few more questions:
*Is DAA or a Testbooster a good choice during PCT?

*Am I going to regret leaving HCG out?

*Say I run one cycle at 23, decide AAS aren't for me after-all, and continue training natural afterwards. Will I keep the strength and/or size gains I make indefinitely? Will my musculature return to baseline over a specific timeline?

I'm worried AAS will give me something, only to take it away and demand further use to keep the size and strength it gave me. Like a drug of abuse. If my goals are simply to test the waters and focus on accelerating strength gains am I misguided?

Originally Posted by xJolt

*Say I run one cycle at 23, decide AAS aren't for me after-all, and continue training natural afterwards. Will I keep the strength and/or size gains I make indefinitely? Will my musculature return to baseline over a specific timeline?

I'm worried AAS will give me something, only to take it away and demand further use to keep the size and strength it gave me. Like a drug of abuse. If my goals are simply to test the waters and focus on accelerating strength gains am I misguided?

I've wondered about this myself. I'm very interested to hear what everyone has to say.

There have been studies done that say you will continue to be stronger after steroid use than you would of been if you never used them. Your natural test should return to baseline after a good PCT and some time. DAA is a promising supplement but I would use it after PCT. What is called OCT. Check out the sticky I created called Priming and OCT. If you don't like using AAS you should have no problem training naturally after your Test levels go back to normal. The only way to know where normal is would be to have blood work done before and after your cycle and PCT. If you are concerned about not getting you natural test back as quickly as you would like then maybe you should consider using HCG 2Xs a week at 250ius each time during your cycle and stop before PCT. This is a very small amount and will make a big difference in how quickly you will recover because it will prevent your testes from shutting down completely. Yes steroids can be addictive because they will make your body more capable to make use of the hard work you put into the gym and you will get results from them much more quickly. If AAS are not used properly you will at risk for many health issues. Much of the gains you will make while on AAS will go away after use but you will still keep more than what you had before using AAS if you train hard, follow proper PCT, and eat right. Good Luck

Originally Posted by xJolt

*Say I run one cycle at 23, decide AAS aren't for me after-all, and continue training natural afterwards. Will I keep the strength and/or size gains I make indefinitely? Will my musculature return to baseline over a specific timeline?

I'm worried AAS will give me something, only to take it away and demand further use to keep the size and strength it gave me. Like a drug of abuse. If my goals are simply to test the waters and focus on accelerating strength gains am I misguided?

Run the HCG if you like, it's not very expensive and it will definitely give you some peace of mind. Plus if you have a gf she might get a bit suspicious when your nuts start to shrink lol.

As far as keeping your gains, my understanding is that with proper pct, keeping your calories high, and good training you can keep a pretty good portion of the gains. This becomes a problem when you've surpassed your "genetic limit", at this point your body will not be able to hold that mass without using some hormones. This won't be a problem for the majority of users because it takes quite a while to reach your genetic limit. If you do exceed that, then when you come off you will slowly return to what your body can support, which is still pretty large for most people. In short, you won't stay pro bb size without alot of gear, year round, but 90+% of people obviously won't reach that anyway. For most you should be able to keep a respectable amount of size forever as long as you keep up with diet/training.

It's good to hear I'll keep my gains.

Also, HCG is sounding more and more essential. Just found it's not that hard to come by. Anything to help with PCT sounds like it should be included.

I'll leave DAA for "OCT"

I also just realized I have lots of bulk Acetyl-L-Carnatine. I currently take it for its Nootropic effects (awesome btw); I've read that it can up-regulate AR throughout the body. I'm thinking it would make a good addition to either PCT or OCT.

CycleV2


Prime (Weeks -2 to 0):
- Change diet to only 50g of Carbs on week days for two weeks
- AI Cycle Support (NAC/Milk Thistle/Hawthorn Berry/Etc.)
- Fish Oil - 8g ED

Cycle (Weeks 1-10):
- Testosterone Ethanate (IM) - 250mg E3.5D:
500mg First Monday Evening
500mg First Thursday Morning
250mg Monday Evenings/Thursday Mornings Afterwards
- HCG (IM/SC?) - 250IU E3.5D (Weeks 2-9)
- Aromasin - 6.25mg ED on cycle
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED

Bridge (Week 11):
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) 50mg ED
- Aromasin - 25mg ED
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

PCT (Weeks 12-15):
- Toremifene Citrate - 120/90/60/30
- Aromasin - 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) - 50mg ED (Besides week 15)
- ACLAR 3g ED
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

OCT (Weeks 16-20):
- TestForce2 (DAA) 3g ED
- ACLAR 3g ED
- Beta-Alanine - 5g ED
- ZMA - Before Bed
- Calcium Citrate - 500mgs ED
- VitD - 2000IU ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

New questions:
*Can I drink 3 cups of coffee a day as usual during my cycle?

*Should I use Arimidex over Aromasin? My primary concerns are: not looking bloated, avoiding gyno, and keeping libido up.

*Assuming I'm set on 500mg Test-E; is the Aromasin and HCG dosing sufficient? HCG increases E so should my Aromasin be 12.5mg ED?

*What psychological effects can I anticipate on cycle? I'm starting a job this summer and I do not want my employer to know that I'm on anything. This employer may have an eye for such things. Is roid-rage ever an issue for otherwise level headed users?

*Also, if I started near the end of the summer I would be PCT during final exams. I already struggle to stay afloat in my program so I do not want any psychological fogginess hindering my ability to perform academically. Will I be lethargic during PCT?

Thanks in advance; this is easily the most help I've gotten.

Originally Posted by xJolt

It's good to hear I'll keep my gains.

Also, HCG is sounding more and more essential. Just found it's not that hard to come by. Anything to help with PCT sounds like it should be included.

I'll leave DAA for "OCT"

I also just realized I have lots of bulk Acetyl-L-Carnatine. I currently take it for its Nootropic effects (awesome btw); I've read that it can up-regulate AR throughout the body. I'm thinking it would make a good addition to either PCT or OCT.

CycleV2


Prime (Weeks -2 to 0):
- Change diet to only 50g of Carbs on week days for two weeks
- AI Cycle Support (NAC/Milk Thistle/Hawthorn Berry/Etc.)
- Fish Oil - 8g ED

Cycle (Weeks 1-10):
- Testosterone Ethanate (IM) - 250mg E3.5D:
500mg First Monday Evening
500mg First Thursday Morning
250mg Monday Evenings/Thursday Mornings Afterwards
- HCG (IM/SC?) - 250IU E3.5D (Weeks 2-9)
- Aromasin - 6.25mg ED on cycle
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED

Bridge (Week 11):
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) 50mg ED
- Aromasin - 25mg ED
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

PCT (Weeks 12-15):
- Toremifene Citrate - 120/90/60/30
- Aromasin - 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) - 50mg ED (Besides week 15)
- ACLAR 3g ED
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

OCT (Weeks 16-20):
- TestForce2 (DAA) 3g ED
- ACLAR 3g ED
- Beta-Alanine - 5g ED
- ZMA - Before Bed
- Calcium Citrate - 500mgs ED
- VitD - 2000IU ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

New questions:
*Can I drink 3 cups of coffee a day as usual during my cycle?

*Should I use Arimidex over Aromasin? My primary concerns are: not looking bloated, avoiding gyno, and keeping libido up.

*Assuming I'm set on 500mg Test-E; is the Aromasin and HCG dosing sufficient? HCG increases E so should my Aromasin be 12.5mg ED?

*What psychological effects can I anticipate on cycle? I'm starting a job this summer and I do not want my employer to know that I'm on anything. This employer may have an eye for such things. Is roid-rage ever an issue for otherwise level headed users?

*Also, if I started near the end of the summer I would be PCT during final exams. I already struggle to stay afloat in my program so I do not want any psychological fogginess hindering my ability to perform academically. Will I be lethargic during PCT?

Thanks in advance; this is easily the most help I've gotten.

Looks like a pretty solid cycle to me. No experience with toremifene so can't say anything about your dosage. HCG can be found all over the place and its not a whole lot of money, so if you can afford it by all means go ahead

Coffee is no problem as far as I know, I drink two cups a day and have no problems so far. I don't think a-dex or aromasin will make much difference on bloat, as long as the dosage keeps your estro at about the same level. Again I'm not 100% on this but pretty sure HCG increases estrogen because it raises test levels in people who are not using AAS. Obviously that means more estrogen, but since you're already on test I don't think it will make any real difference. As far as roid-rage, most seem to agree its not really a problem unless you're already an asshole. Some guys seem to use it as an excuse to act like a douchebag. With that said I do feel slightly more agressive and short-tempered, but what you usually hear about is vastly exaggerated. I haven't had any problems keeping my cool and being patient, no one would notice it except for me. During pct you might feel a bit lethargic and "off", your test levels are gonna be low so you will have the side effects associated with that. Also clomid causes some people to be very emotional, so keep that in mind. If you're worried work your cycle around that fact, and run at a different time. I'd think you should be able to handle it for a few weeks but that's for you to decide.

shouldnt ur bridge be 2 weeks instead of 1?

Thanks digitalash, luckily I'm not an asshole!
Good to know I can keep on with the coffee.

Thanks for the note mnml Ill adjust accordingly.

Also, I just looked at prices/sources and such. I made some adjustments.

CycleV3


Prime (Weeks -2 to 0):
- Change diet to only 50g of Carbs on week days for two weeks
- Hawthorne Berry - 3g ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Pantothenic Acid (B5) - 1.5g ED

Cycle (Weeks 1-10):
- Testosterone Ethanate (IM) - 250mg E3.5D:
500mg First Monday Evening
500mg First Thursday Morning
250mg Monday Evenings/Thursday Mornings Afterwards
- HCG (IM/SC?) - 250IU E3.5D (Weeks 2-9)
- VitE - 400IU E3.5D (with HCG)
- Aromasin - 6.25mg ED on cycle
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support - 2 Scoops ED
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Pantothenic Acid (B5) - 1.5g ED

Bridge (Weeks 11 - 12):
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) 50mg ED
- Aromasin - 25mg ED
- Nioxin Shampoo
- AI Cycle Support - 1 Scoop ED for 4 days (Only buying two tubs)
- Hawthorne Berry - 2g ED for next 4 days after Cycle Support runs out
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

PCT (Weeks 13-16):
- Toremifene Citrate - 120/90/60/30mg
- Aromasin - 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25mg
- B-Androstenetriol (CEL's Suppress C) - 50mg ED (Weeks 13 - 14)
- ACLAR 3g ED
- ZMA
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

OCT (Weeks 17-20):
- TestForce2 (DAA) 3g ED
- ACLAR 3g ED
- Beta-Alanine - 5g ED
- ZMA - Before Bed
- Calcium Citrate - 500mgs ED
- VitD - 2000IU ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED

Test-E/HCG/Torem all available and reasonable.

Only real problem is the Aromasin is very expensive and comes in 650mg bottles. To run like this I'll need 1.05g which means buying two expensive ass bottles. Perhaps I can run Aromasin during the cycle then switch to Aridex in PCT? Any ideas?

Test e ain't gonna put much stress on your liver. If you wanna save some bucks, I'd skip AI cycle support if you haven't bought it yet.

I'm curious, what's the reason for increasing aromasin dose to 25mg ED during bridge?

Originally Posted by xJolt

Only real problem is the Aromasin is very expensive and comes in 650mg bottles. To run like this I'll need 1.05g which means buying two expensive ass bottles. Perhaps I can run Aromasin during the cycle then switch to Aridex in PCT? Any ideas?

If you wanna go that route use the arimidex during cycle and the aromasin for pct. also try one of the peptide/research chem guys here, they should have aromasin (exemestane) a little cheaper

I could just do 6.25mg everyday starting one week in to the Test-E and ending 3 weeks into PCT... I have no idea if that is enough though.

Perhaps I'll buy some letro and add that if I do get gyno? 6.25mg should mitigate estrogen related sides/bloat and then I have the letro for peace of mind. I have no idea to the polypharmacy of letro + aromasin.

2 bottles of Aromasin might be the way to go eh? That way I can up or down the dose as needed.

Originally Posted by xJolt

I could just do 6.25mg everyday starting one week in to the Test-E and ending 3 weeks into PCT... I have no idea if that is enough though.

Perhaps I'll buy some letro and add that if I do get gyno? 6.25mg should mitigate estrogen related sides/bloat and then I have the letro for peace of mind. I have no idea to the polypharmacy of letro + aromasin.

2 bottles of Aromasin might be the way to go eh? That way I can up or down the dose as needed.

I think 6.25 is enough for some people, pretty sure everyone's a little different when it comes to AI dosage. I'd have enough for 12.5 though just in case. And I would start your AI right away, at a low dose at the very least. Your test levels will start to increase right after your first pin so some will begin to aromatize immediately. I've even heard that some people start their AI a week ahead of time, though I don't think you'd need to go that far. Also aromasin is the compound of choice for pct, if money's an issue run the arimidex on cycle and save the aromasin for pct.

Old post but I thought I would give an update.

I'm managing 4 days a week now and thank maltodextrin for the added recovery. More carbs = More energy it seems. So that's good.

Through serendipity I got everything I need to run this cycle besides the Torem, for next to nothing. I plan to order the Torem asap as its becoming harder to find, especially in Canada. I'm still waiting to actually run it. It's nice to know I have it all set up correctly for when I do.

Any comments?

CycleV4


Prime (Weeks -2 to 0):
- Change diet to only 50g of Carbs on week days for two weeks
- Hawthorne Berry - 3g QAM
- Fish Oil - 8g QAM

Cycle (Weeks 1-10):
- Testosterone Ethanate (IM) - 250mg Q3.5D via 27g 1.25" Needle:
*500mg First Monday Evening
*500mg First Thursday Morning
*250mg Monday Evenings/Thursday Mornings Afterwards
- HCG (SC) - 250IU Q3.5D (Weeks 2-9) via Insulin Needle
- VitE - 400IU Q3.5D (with HCG)
- Aromasin - 12.5mg QAM on cycle
- Nioxin Shampoo Topically QAM
- Fish Oil - 8g QAM
- Pantothenic Acid (B5) - 1.5g QAM
- Policosanol 20mg QAM
- Na-R-ALA 250mg QHS AC (before dinner)

Bridge (Weeks 11 - 12):
- EndoAmp Max (PSerine) 800mg QAM, for cortisol control
- Aromasin - 12.5mg ED
- Nioxin Shampoo Topically QAM
- Hawthorne Berry - 2g QAM
- Fish Oil - 8g QAM
- Creatine - 5g QD
- Policosanol 20mg QAM

PCT (Weeks 13-16):
- Toremifene Citrate - 120/90/60/30mg
- Aromasin - 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25mg
- EndoAmp Max (PSerine) 800mg QAM, for cortisol control
- LCLT 3g ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g ED
- Policosanol 20mg ED

OCT (Weeks 17 - 20):
- PES Erase 75mg (3Pills) QD
- LCLT - 3g ED
- Fish Oil - 8g ED
- Creatine - 5g QD

I am still debating trying out Hdrol or Tbol first at 25mg TID (75mg) for 5 weeks with Torem (60mg/30mg) and Endoamp Max for a 2 week PCT.

Is Test-E THAT much better than Hdrol/Tbol that I shouldn't even try PS/DS first?