Thread: First Cycle, concerned about joints

Originally Posted by Calves of Steel

Hey newbie to the forum, I have been browsing IM for a few years though. I'm 25, 6'0, 224lbs, 14%bf, I've been lifting for 10 years, started out 130 and fat and have been getting into better and better shape up until a year or two ago. I've got a masters in human nutrition and I give diet counseling and own a restaurant. My diet at the moment is weight maintenance, 4,000 calories, 40/20/40 Carbs/Protein/Fat.

I'm working on putting together a first cycle. My goal for this cycle is to get to 250 lbs in 16 weeks, and put at least an inch on my arms and 2 inches on my legs(the rest I'd watch for proportionally). I am not too concerned with body fat gain or loss, a few pounds either way is fine with me. I'm looking to put on size, and a little strength.

I do have some joint issues that are really freaking me out lately, brittle tendons on my right bicep, knee and wrist pains, and I am looking for a way to alleviate them during my cycle. I have been recommended either 200mg EW Deca and/or 4iu five days per week GH along with the 500mg test c I plan to take.

Here is the cycle I put together please let me know if I should change any doses or remove anything altogether. (and keep my poor joints in mind!)

Cycle:
Week 1 - 16 test cyp 500mg EW
Week 1 - 13 deca 200mg EW
Week 1 - 16 HCG 500iu EW
4iu HGH 5 days per week (should i start this beforehand and/or keep this going after the cycle?)

PCT(starting 2 weeks after last test shot:
Day 1: Clomid 150mg
Day 2-6: Clomid 100mg
Day 7-28: Clomid 50mg


Supplements I take:
Creatine Monohydrate 10g/day
Beta-alanine: 2tsp/day
BCAA: 20g/day
Glutamine: 10mg/day

You're not planning on running an AI?

You should run an AI for both on cycle and PCT. Aromasin is preferred, but Arimidex will work as well.

On cycle: 12.5mg EOD Aromasin, or .5mg EOD of Arimidex.

PCT: Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5

Edit to add: Even though you are running a really low dose of Deca, it would be a good idea to have some caber on hand just in case.

First cycle and you are running TEST, DECA, and GH? and no AI? FUUUUHHHHH

yah dun goof boi

drop BCAA and glutamine.. waste of money if you're taking protein powder.

i hear cissus is pretty good for joints..

Just run test only.

Test E or C for 12-14 or even 16 weeks
Simple PCT of 4 weeks.

You probably already have this stuff coming or already have possession of it, so I would allow the guys with current experience to chime in.

I would think for your first cycle keep it simple. 12 week Test C or E and drop the Deca. Definitely add an AI of some sort.

I considered adding an AI but I've never had any shred of gyno, and I have read that they may be bad for joints. Believe me I'd love to keep it as simple as possible. Deca and GH I wouldn't think of including in a first cycle if I wasn't truly worried about the joints. I've heard that test alone can be rough on them and I'd imagine test and an AI would be worse. I haven't ordered anything yet, looking for input on the forum before putting money out for anything. I tried cissus last year for around 5-6 weeks. Never made a difference, neither did the glucosamine/chondroiton/msm combo. From what I've heard gh or deca might help build them up since supplements alone did not.

You guys sure test+AI followed by simple pct and no gh or deca for joint care? Bloating, decreased sex drive etc don't scare me nearly as much tearing a tendon.

I would have thought that the creatine monohydrate, with it's water-holding properties, would have helped out a bit? Last time I took CM, it was almost 10 years ago so I'm a little rusty on how it made my joints feel.

I'm trying to figure out how the Test itself would be damaging? The only thing that I could think of is the fact that you are going to be lifting heavier and harder when "ON".

Test does cause some water retention, so it should help out. Now if you threw Winny or a dry compound in there, then I wouldnt suggest it.

Testosterone injections decrease collagen synthesis = bad joints. What to do? - Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding Discussion Forums - Steroidology

...is an article about test vs other anabolics on collagen synthesis. Says EQ is really good for it but I've never heard that from any of my friends. It's all just been test is great for mood and muscles bad for joints, deca is bad for mood great for joints, gh is good for joints and amplifies muscle building effects of juice. Is there any truth to that?

@djlance:
creatine promotes retention of water inside of muscle cells because the creatine receptor requires 2 sodium atoms to be drawn in with every creatine molecule, and both creatine and sodium require water solvate, (secure) them in the muscle. No no creatine or water is drawn into joints. I wrote a 15 page paper on creatine monohydrate as an undergrad hehe.

Originally Posted by Calves of Steel

Testosterone injections decrease collagen synthesis = bad joints. What to do? - Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding Discussion Forums - Steroidology

...is an article about test vs other anabolics on collagen synthesis. Says EQ is really good for it but I've never heard that from any of my friends. It's all just been test is great for mood and muscles bad for joints, deca is bad for mood great for joints, gh is good for joints and amplifies muscle building effects of juice. Is there any truth to that?

that article has been floating around the net and has no research to back it up. In vivo, test can also help increase HGH level, which will also help building joints.

Originally Posted by Calves of Steel

@djlance:
creatine promotes retention of water inside of muscle cells because the creatine receptor requires 2 sodium atoms to be drawn in with every creatine molecule, and both creatine and sodium require water solvate, (secure) them in the muscle. No no creatine or water is drawn into joints. I wrote a 15 page paper on creatine monohydrate as an undergrad hehe.

what did you study?

I believe Glucosamine (sp?) is to help with joint issues. You shouldn't tear anything as long as you stretch and warm up properly.

@minimal
I studied human nutrition with a focus on heart disease prevention in undergrad and antioxidant bioavailability in grad. I've always been crazy about the fitness end too, just not as interested in working in it.

@hawk
I warm up, stretch, etc as best I can but especially the tendon in my right bicep is very thin compared to my left arm and I'm always paranoid that it'll snap one day. Glucosamine didn't help :/

Interesting. Have you thought about going to your doctor? Maybe he/she can refer you to a specialist so that way they can try to diagnose the problem.

And yes, EQ is good for joints also...

I haven't seriously pursued attention from a doctor about it, however I've asked my PCP and he would recommend weight loss to most people and that glucosamine helps some people but I probably would not benefit from either and I should take it easy. Been on and off of taking it easy. I feel like I'm maintaining them, however they just aren't growing any stronger.

holy fucking first cycle batman!

If you are sticking with the 200 of deca your joints will be fine

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