Thread: test and dbols

Yes. You could get away with not using the nolva though and opt for exemestane. A little HCG (if you can get it) would be nice.

Yes run the adex throughout. nolva is not needed for pct. aromasin is advised though at 12.5-25mgs ed during pct.

but all in all a good job really!

yes

You may want to start the arimidex at .5mg every Other day to start and go from there. Stopping the test from converting to estrogen is good to prevent gyno and bloat but you dont want to stop estrogen completely you still need some to make gains. Just a suggestion. Other than that everything looks good bro! good luck with your cycle.

thanks i"ll post stats when i begin it will be awhile yet as canada post is on strike and im planning on ordering through ek. prices are unbelievable so i gotta take a shot lol

Only use an anti-E on cycle if you start getting sides (bloating, nipples itching etc...). As for pct, opt for hcg instead of clomid, more effective and less sides.

Nolvadex vs. Clomid for Post Cycle Therapy
(BassKiller)
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolvadex to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolvadex is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constant and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or Arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or Arimidex. Therefore, when problems such as gynecomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or Arimidex. The proviron or Arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound. So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynecomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above. Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
written by BigCat
References
1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27
2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

Originally Posted by supaman23

Only use an anti-E on cycle if you start getting sides (bloating, nipples itching etc...). As for pct, opt for hcg instead of clomid, more effective and less sides.

No. you use HCG while on cycle not for PCT. Using it Post cycle is only going to cause more suppression of natural testosterone levels, which in turn will make recovery take longer. If your going to use HCG, use it while on cycle to make recovery easier. Im sure other members on the board will back me on this one

Originally Posted by Livebig14

No. you use HCG while on cycle not for PCT. Using it Post cycle is only going to cause more suppression of natural testosterone levels, which in turn will make recovery take longer. If your going to use HCG, use it while on cycle to make recovery easier. Im sure other members on the board will back me on this one

I tried both and found out hcg in pct to be much more effective. I will take my personal experience as a reference over any expert's opinion.
Use hcg after last inection for 10 straight days at 500iu/day and thank me for it. Use nolva/aromasin as usual for 30-40 days as needed, my 2 cents.
Either way, good luck and be safe.

Originally Posted by supaman23

I tried both and found out hcg in pct to be much more effective. I will take my personal experience as a reference over any expert's opinion.
Use hcg after last inection for 10 straight days at 500iu/day and thank me for it. Use nolva/aromasin as usual for 30-40 days as needed, my 2 cents.
Either way, good luck and be safe.

alright man no problem just telling him the general consensus when it comes to HCG. But like you said you gotta do what works for you its your body that your putting the shit into. But most people do use HCG on cycle not for PCT

Originally Posted by Livebig14

alright man no problem just telling him the general consensus when it comes to HCG. But like you said you gotta do what works for you its your body that your putting the shit into. But most people do use HCG on cycle not for PCT

HCG is one of those things that can be run in many different ways. There is no right or wrong, but like I said, that's how I found it to be most effective for me. So try few ways of doing it and see which one works better.

I could see what blasting on HCG could do right after the last injection until the esters clear. I would worry about becoming desensitized to LH from the blasting though.

I could consider blasting for 2-3 days max after last injection.

It's a fact that HCG will suppress your natural testosterone production cycle, which is what PCT is supposed to fix. But I don't disagree that your method works for you.

Supamans actually recommending HCG for pre pct, not pct. The test is still clearing for 2 weeks after last pin. It's actually a similar protocol to HI's just smaller dosages. Of course, the consensus here is to prevent atrophy not recover from it.

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

Supamans actually recommending HCG for pre pct, not pct. The test is still clearing for 2 weeks after last pin. It's actually a similar protocol to HI's just smaller dosages. Of course, the consensus here is to prevent atrophy not recover from it.

Exactly.
But I don't get why people are so worried about hcg suppressing natural test, I mean you guys go on for months cycling aas and suppressing your natural test, and you are worried about hcg suppressing it for just 7-10 extra days which will be well worth it when you see your hpta bounce back in no time?

Originally Posted by supaman23

Exactly.
But I don't get why people are so worried about hcg suppressing natural test, I mean you guys go on for months cycling aas and suppressing your natural test, and you are worried about hcg suppressing it for just 7-10 extra days which will be well worth it when you see your hpta bounce back in no time?

I think there was a misnderstanding, they thought you were recommending HCG for pct and not pre pct.

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

I think there was a misnderstanding, they thought you were recommending HCG for pct and not pre pct.

bump. But I still believe its better to use all throughout the cycle up to PCT. Yes your natural test will still be suppressed but your boys will be normal size if not bigger as soon as PCT starts, which means they will more quickly start producing natural test. But pre PCT is ok too. I just prefer to run it throughout the cycle. But again its all based on experience and personal opinion.

Originally Posted by Livebig14

bump. But I still believe its better to use all throughout the cycle up to PCT. Yes your natural test will still be suppressed but your boys will be normal size if not bigger as soon as PCT starts, which means they will more quickly start producing natural test. But pre PCT is ok too. I just prefer to run it throughout the cycle. But again its all based on experience and personal opinion.

Yes! I'm no expert but it seems logical to use HCG on cycle and pre pct. If you can't run it during cycle then pre pct is better than none.

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

Yes! I'm no expert but it seems logical to use HCG on cycle and pre pct. If you can't run it during cycle then pre pct is better than none.

you got it man. pre pct is definatley better than nothing

Originally Posted by BMass

Nolvadex vs. Clomid for Post Cycle Therapy
(BassKiller)
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolvadex to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolvadex is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constant and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or Arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or Arimidex. Therefore, when problems such as gynecomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or Arimidex. The proviron or Arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound. So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynecomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above. Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
written by BigCat
References
1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27
2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

This article is incorrect. SERMs do not decrease estrogen. They block it selectively at select tissues. That's why they are called selective estrogen receptor modulators. Just because one SERM might be a more potent anti-estrogen does not mean it is appropriate to target, or select for, a particular estrogen re3ceptor positive tissue. Clomid is very good at blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus at the cell surface estrogen receptor (it is a specialzed receptor distinct from the nuclear/cytosolic estrogen receptor). Nolvadex also works here but is a better anti-estrogen at the breast issue.

One thing that probably is not advisible during TRT is to take so much aromatase inhibitor as to drive estrogen into the ground. That is a sure way to feel very very brittle. This is why I question use of exemastane and letrozole during PCT.

Originally Posted by Glycomann

This article is incorrect. SERMs do not decrease estrogen. They block it selectively at select tissues. That's why they are called selective estrogen receptor modulators. Just because one SERM might be a more potent anti-estrogen does not mean it is appropriate to target, or select for, a particular estrogen re3ceptor positive tissue. Clomid is very good at blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus at the cell surface estrogen receptor (it is a specialzed receptor distinct from the nuclear/cytosolic estrogen receptor). Nolvadex also works here but is a better anti-estrogen at the breast issue.

One thing that probably is not advisible during TRT is to take so much aromatase inhibitor as to drive estrogen into the ground. That is a sure way to feel very very brittle. This is why I question use of exemastane and letrozole during PCT.

I'm also a little bit leary about the high dosage of AI recommended for PCT, especially when it's recommended to run it higher than on cycle.

The best explanation that I've recieved about running a high AI is that the body reads low estrogen as low test and begins a stronger response for producing T.

But, my understanding is that we are doing this with a SERM. The SERM is binding to the estrogen receptor and blocking estrogen form binding to it, essentially sending the message "low estrogen." If the SERM is effective at blocking the receptor sites, then it should have the same effect on the HTPA as an AI.

I would think that if you're running clomid, crushing your E2 would have no more added effect. any thoughts, disagreements?

I have also felt the effects of low E2 and it's not too enjoyable.

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

I'm also a little bit leary about the high dosage of AI recommended for PCT, especially when it's recommended to run it higher than on cycle.

The best explanation that I've recieved about running a high AI is that the body reads low estrogen as low test and begins a stronger response for producing T.

But, my understanding is that we are doing this with a SERM. The SERM is binding to the estrogen receptor and blocking estrogen form binding to it, essentially sending the message "low estrogen." If the SERM is effective at blocking the receptor sites, then it should have the same effect on the HTPA as an AI.

I would think that if you're running clomid, crushing your E2 would have no more added effect. any thoughts, disagreements?

I have also felt the effects of low E2 and it's not too enjoyable.

Plus the SERMs are somewhat protective of the osteoactivity of estrogens. So rather than severely limiting bone and joint tissue estrogen signaling SERMs actually support it.