AAS and joint pain

**Glycomann** · 07-01-2011, 06:20 AM

I have been seeing a lot of threads on the boards on the topic of joint pain. Mostly people have been on and off AAS for a long time and not taking very long off periods or none at all. Then they look for a drug or supplement to help with the pain not stopping to think about what's going on in their bodies. There are physiologic reasons why this shit happens and, news flash!!, it related to drug cycles! When I have some time I will write out what's going on in detail but for now just realize that anabolic Steroids are signaling activators. The human body is designed to operate within specific ranges of steroid hormones. What you are putting into your body are either testosterone at 2-20 times the normal range and/or artificial compounds with alien configurations that have unnatural receptor profiles and these are usually used at 2-20 times the clinical dosage range. So the body's homeostasis is thrown into discord and, to some extent, stays that way while the drugs are in use. Steroid degradation pathways are up-regulated. Muscle tissue becomes super-hydrated. Joint tissue turn-over and component ratios are altered. Normal steroid synthesis is disrupted. Mineralocorticoid, glucocorticoid, sex steroid biosynthesis and the other minor steroid biomolecules are greatly compromised. These little ringy molecules are major signaling entities that govern 100s of processes in the body and we expect to throw them into disarray with few consequences. If you are not taking adequate breaks the system will eventually break down. The pain from soft tissue dysmorphia is masked for a period since AAS are anti-inflammatory but eventually, even when on these drugs, the pain pokes through. Then when the drugs are removed the pain is much worse. Unfortunately, often is the case when, the user goes back to the drugs and the dysmorphia becomes worse. In extreme cases joint, tendon or muscle tear failure occurs.

The solution for AAS associated joint pain and injury, sad to say, is to get off the drugs until all joint pain subsides. I am not the first to bring this up. Even Dan Duchaine, back in the day, discussed this. He claimed that the joint damage does not resolve for a solid year. I assume he was speaking about people that have abused to the point where the pain was significant.

**D-Lats** · 07-01-2011, 06:24 AM

Wow great post Glyco it definatly makes sence. Thanks.

**bigdtrain** · 07-01-2011, 06:27 AM

take glucosamine and condrotin

**bigdtrain** · 07-01-2011, 06:27 AM

that why pros stay on year round

**bigdtrain** · 07-01-2011, 06:27 AM

some aas actually loob joints

**bigdtrain** · 07-01-2011, 06:27 AM

do you take any joint pills?

**bigdtrain** · 07-01-2011, 06:28 AM

let me know kid

**D-Lats** · 07-01-2011, 06:31 AM

Id neg you if i wasnt on my phone big d train! Glucosamine amd condeoitin are garbage and are proven placebos.

**BigBird** · 07-01-2011, 06:50 AM

If I get joint pain it's usually at the beginning of the cycle as my joints are shocked into keeping up with my muscles. After a while the joint pain subsides until it all but disappears. Haven't had it in a long time and feeling grrrrreat! However, it's a real drag when it does occur. My first ever Winstrol cycle caused aching elbows to the point where I couldn't curl a 5lb dumbbell. The joint pain days are over hopefully.

**exphys88** · 07-01-2011, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by D-Latsky

Id neg you if i wasnt on my phone big d train! Glucosamine amd condeoitin are garbage and are proven placebos.

+1
Most legal supplements are placebos.

**LightBearer** · 07-01-2011, 10:52 AM

I have shoulder problems and Animal Flex by unitersal nutrition has helped me out a lot, I've been taking it for a few years

**SFW** · 07-01-2011, 10:53 AM

icy hot and aspirin. keep it movin

**Glycomann** · 07-01-2011, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by bigdtrain

let me know kid

^^^ clueless Vitamine Shoppe/GNC vagrant.

**trapzilla** · 07-01-2011, 04:55 PM

Glyco is it possible to artificially introduce or stimulate production of "Mineralocorticoid, glucocorticoid, sex steroid biosynthesis and the other minor steroid biomolecules are greatly compromised" at all?

**Glycomann** · 07-01-2011, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by trapzilla

Glyco is it possible to artificially introduce or stimulate production of "Mineralocorticoid, glucocorticoid, sex steroid biosynthesis and the other minor steroid biomolecules are greatly compromised" at all?

No there isn't. Best solution for the shit stained place of AAS joint pain is to come off and recover... or you can do like Tom Prince and take 30 advil a day and burn through your kidneys.

It's really no big deal to come off for 6 months. Everybody thinks they're going to be a eunuch if they come off for more than a few weeks. First 8 weeks sucks. second 8 weeks is better. Third 8 weeks is feeling pretty good and can make natti gains again plus all your joints feel spiffy and you're ready to hit it again fresh and strong.

**TGB1987** · 07-01-2011, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by LightBearer

I have shoulder problems and Animal Flex by unitersal nutrition has helped me out a lot, I've been taking it for a few years

I use this product with success too. This about the only one that actually helps me. Most are placebo when it comes to joint supps. I use the Animal Omega with it. Not a fan of the animal products much because of the prices, low serving counts on most, and large amount of pills you have to swallow but these two are very good IMO.
Great article Glyco. This is very interesting. I am looking forward to see your breakdown as to why this occurs.

**USMC** · 07-02-2011, 04:09 PM

Not discounting anything thats already been said, but I'll say from personal experience that I swear by Fish Oil w/Omega3, Glucosamine and Chondriton. And in fact based upon X-Ray and MRI that they have in fact reversed damage in my knees. I do take high doses of all 3 but the fact still remains. Also joint pain has become almost non existant.

NOW that being said I will say I didn't have joint pain because of gear abuse, matter of fact I'm a newb on this forum and until recently hadn't taken gear in years(like 12 of them lol). However after 8 years in the Infantry and subsequently having the joints of a senior citizen given the weight we hump around and the mileage(quite a few on here can attest to this for sure) that fact still remains.

Take it for what you will but I swear by that shit.

**meatead** · 07-02-2011, 04:35 PM

Great post. I recently had 'Golfers Elbow' - don't play golf tho' & the doc gave me a 'steroid' injection into my elbow...any ideas what it might have been. And is it something 'we' could administer ourself, if the need arises. Or am I way off track here?

**meatead** · 07-02-2011, 04:38 PM

Do you really think that most legal supplements are a waste of time? I mean, should I dispense with the multi vitamins etc.?

**OldSchoolLifter** · 07-02-2011, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by meatead

Great post. I recently had 'Golfers Elbow' - don't play golf tho' & the doc gave me a 'steroid' injection into my elbow...any ideas what it might have been. And is it something 'we' could administer ourself, if the need arises. Or am I way off track here?

Probably cortisol would be my guess

**LightBearer** · 07-02-2011, 05:02 PM

How do you feel about animal omega? Its expencive, I know there's a good variety of efa's in it

Originally Posted by TGB1987

I use this product with success too. This about the only one that actually helps me. Most are placebo when it comes to joint supps. I use the Animal Omega with it. Not a fan of the animal products much because of the prices, low serving counts on most, and large amount of pills you have to swallow but these two are very good IMO.
Great article Glyco. This is very interesting. I am looking forward to see your breakdown as to why this occurs.

**TGB1987** · 07-02-2011, 05:06 PM

What do you think about Aromatase inhibitors and joint pain GLYCO?

**OldSchoolLifter** · 07-02-2011, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by TGB1987

What do you think about Aromatase inhibitors and joint pain GLYCO?

Aromasin makes me feel like an old man! lol

**TGB1987** · 07-02-2011, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by LightBearer

How do you feel about animal omega? Its expencive, I know there's a good variety of efa's in it

I really like Animal Omega so far. I want to keep my heart healthy and keep cholesterol in check. As for legal supplements I do not feel they are worthless by any means. If you do not get the proper diet and nutrition in check steroids aren't going to do too much good for you. You have to have diet and nutrition down first. This is where supplements help you get the vitamins and minerals you do not get in food. Supplements can be very important in a bodybuilders routine.

**Mr.BIG** · 07-02-2011, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by USMC

Not discounting anything thats already been said, but I'll say from personal experience that I swear by Fish Oil w/Omega3, Glucosamine and Chondriton. And in fact based upon X-Ray and MRI that they have in fact reversed damage in my knees. I do take high doses of all 3 but the fact still remains. Also joint pain has become almost non existant.

NOW that being said I will say I didn't have joint pain because of gear abuse, matter of fact I'm a newb on this forum and until recently hadn't taken gear in years(like 12 of them lol). However after 8 years in the Infantry and subsequently having the joints of a senior citizen given the weight we hump around and the mileage(quite a few on here can attest to this for sure) that fact still remains.

Take it for what you will but I swear by that shit.

I hurt my knee roofing many years ago, every step I took it clicked, did that for over 2 years, the week after taking glucosimin chondroitin it stopped clicking and the pain went away! I been taking it since! 15 years now!

Today I take 6000mg Fish oil and 2 tablets of glucosimin chondroitin everyday! Some say its a placebo but I'm here to say BS it healed my broken cartledge! I also have MRI's to prove it, the doctor couldn't believe it! I had an MRI done when I hurt it and then one done after 3 months of taking Glucosimin chondroitin and it showed the cartledge healed! Mind you it clicked for the whole 2 years after injury till I started taking it!

**Glycomann** · 07-02-2011, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by meatead

Great post. I recently had 'Golfers Elbow' - don't play golf tho' & the doc gave me a 'steroid' injection into my elbow...any ideas what it might have been. And is it something 'we' could administer ourself, if the need arises. Or am I way off track here?

Bad idea to get them regularly. It's not an anabolic steroid but a corticosteroid. Cortisone is a powerful anti-inflammatory agent but it also is catabolic. Eventually it can lead to necrosis in the joint and even bone loss.

**exphys88** · 07-02-2011, 10:07 PM

I humbly disagree w people who begin taking a supplement and have an injury heal, and then be convinced that it was the supplement. Thats just poor science; correlation does not equal causation. It could very well be that the supplement did help, but if you're going to be an objective, scientific consumer, you should demand more evidence then testimonials. Just my 2 cents.

**TREMBO** · 07-02-2011, 10:38 PM

I agree with the first post... During a on AAS period, the tendinopathy simply disapears... After that it hurts like shit.

I think the best way to avoid joint pain is preventing it. I got my 2 elbows, 2 chest and 2 leg's posterior with tendinopathy, but it was because I wasn't doing a proper warm up. After this I always do a 3-4 sets of warming, and it actually treated the previous joint pain, and prevent future ones.

Unfortunatly I'm with a right knee (quad's inserction) and right elbow tendinopathy that still don't wanna resolve. But I'm working on it. My warming/healing protocol is making 3-4 sets of warming with 10-15 reps with progressive weight, like:

Set 1: Just the bar
Set 2: 40/50% of the weight
Set 3: 40/50% of the weight
Set 4: 70% of the weight

You guys have already migratorious joint pain? That happend to me twice... First it was at the left elbow, 6 months after it got cured but the right one got ill. Same happend with left/right knee.

**sassy69** · 07-02-2011, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by TGB1987

What do you think about Aromatase inhibitors and joint pain GLYCO?

Looking at the near-term (vs the long-term use of AAS that I gather the OP was referring to) impact of different compounds, I think the stack of winny + deca is traditional and a great illustration of use of a cutter (wintrol) that causes hella joint pain if you run it alone as a cycle (which I doubt anyone here is going to recommend anyway), but coupling it w/ deca as aromatizing compound to keep some estrogen / water in the mix to support your joints. Also winstrol appears to not only not aromatise, but actually acts as an aromatase inhibitor itself.

Including AIs is recommended to manage your estrogen levels (for guys) resulting from aromatizing compounds, but needs to be balanced to allow some estrogen to enable muscle growth for the stress you're putting on your body already as a result of choosing to run a cycle. I.e. no estrogen at all is bad. You need some estrogen to build muscle mass, and you need some estrogen --> water to keep your joints from feeling brittle.

If you couple dry joints w/ an increase in lifting capability (while not promoting connective tissue) you are also promoting an environment for further joint / tendon / ligament damage.

**TGB1987** · 07-02-2011, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by sassy69

Looking at the near-term (vs the long-term use of AAS that I gather the OP was referring to) impact of different compounds, I think the stack of winny + deca is traditional and a great illustration of use of a cutter (wintrol) that causes hella joint pain if you run it alone as a cycle (which I doubt anyone here is going to recommend anyway), but coupling it w/ deca as aromatizing compound to keep some estrogen / water in the mix to support your joints. Also winstrol appears to not only not aromatise, but actually acts as an aromatase inhibitor itself.

Including AIs is recommended to manage your estrogen levels (for guys) resulting from aromatizing compounds, but needs to be balanced to allow some estrogen to enable muscle growth for the stress you're putting on your body already as a result of choosing to run a cycle. I.e. no estrogen at all is bad. You need some estrogen to build muscle mass, and you need some estrogen --> water to keep your joints from feeling brittle.

If you couple dry joints w/ an increase in lifting capability (while not promoting connective tissue) you are also promoting an environment for further joint / tendon / ligament damage.

Very true Sassy. I recently ran some injectable winny with Test and felt fine. I experienced zero joint pain but keep in mind I only ran Winny for 4 wks and Test still aromatizes so it does add fluid to the body in most cases. Also NPP and Winny with some test is a great way to prevent drying while cutting like Sassy said about the Deca. Winny also has antiprolactin properties as well as antiaromatase properties so it works great with Nandrolone bases. While on cycle I use Aromasin. Aromasin is a strong Type II suicidal aromatase inhibitor. With that being the case it does a great job at keeping estrogen in check. Aromasin is not a compound like letro though that tends to lead to severe drops in estrogen levels which can cause "dry joints" . There was a study done that showed that 50mgs everday of Aromasin showed little difference in effect than 25mgs everyday. Why this is I am not sure. I am going to search for the study. It may be due to the fact that aromasin is a steroidal inhibitor and is slightly androgenic but I am not sure and have no proof of this. Just wanted to add some useful info on my favorite AI aromasin. Side notes Aromasin will prevent estro rebound were Type I AIs will not. Aromasin increases IGF1, free test, and can lead to an even harder look not only from lowering estrogen but also the fact that is steroidal with androgenic properties. Another great benefit of aromasin is the fact that while on cycle it is easier on the lipids than even adex. I personally use aromasin with doses as high as 20mgs everyday with no issue with joint pain. I am going to look for the study about the high dose of aromasin not being anymore effective than the 25mgs ed. I think it may of been used by Heavyiron at one time on here.

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