Thread: Quick Question

Age? Years of liftin experience? This being your first cycle, you should not run the winny, save for your second. Just do the Tbol and Test, and only do a 10 week instead of twelve. I strongly recomend getting and running clomid for pct instead of the nolva. Check out the "first cycle and pct" sticky by heavyiron

Originally Posted by GUNRACK

Age? Years of liftin experience? This being your first cycle, you should not run the winny, save for your second. Just do the Tbol and Test, and only do a 10 week instead of twelve. I strongly recomend getting and running clomid for pct instead of the nolva. Check out the "first cycle and pct" sticky by heavyiron

I'm 21, turn 22 in september. I've been lifting since I was 18, but I've played sports all my life. I do have Clomid on hand btw, along with a few other supporting sups.

Thanks for the response.

use the clomid for pct and keep the nolvadex on hand in case of estrogen sides during cycle. i would do clomid 75/50/50/50

Originally Posted by manickanuck

use the clomid for pct and keep the nolvadex on hand in case of estrogen sides during cycle. i would do clomid 75/50/50/50

yeah, that's why I have it. But can anyone answer my question as how to incorporate 1 vial of 50mg/10ml Winny into my cycle?

Thanks

You are very young, and yes I know you wont put this cycle off like you should for 2-3 more years so....

First cycle....starting small is the best move.

weeks: 1-6 Test prop 150mg EOD.
Take at least 12 full weeks off before the next cycle.

As for PCT and HCG advice ask Heavyiron.

Originally Posted by J.thom

I'm still a natty but I will be starting my first cycle next week. I am 6'0 ft, 205lbs at 12-13% bf. The cycle will be the following:

Week 1-5
Tbol at 30mg ed

Week 1-10
Test C @ 500mg weekly (mon/thurs)

PCT
Nolva at 20/20/20/20

I will also be using Arimidex ed at .25-.5mg ed

MY QUESTION IS:
I have one vial of 50mg/10ml Winny. Is there any way I can incorporate this into my cycle? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

that would be better IMO
week 1-12
test c 500mg/week
week 5-13
proviron 50mg/day
week 10-13
hcg 125iu every other day

week 14-17 pct
nolvadex 40/20/20/10

Originally Posted by maged

that would be better IMO
week 1-12
test c 500mg/week
week 5-13
proviron 50mg/day
week 10-13
hcg 125iu every other day

week 14-17 pct
nolvadex 40/20/20/10

HCG should be 500iu 3.5 days apart and it should be used before you're even shut down, not right before PCT. Provirion on a first cycle isn't the best idea. And clomid for PCT not nolva.

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

HCG should be 500iu 3.5 days apart and it should be used before you're even shut down, not right before PCT. Provirion on a first cycle isn't the best idea. And clomid for PCT not nolva.

hcg is best used at low dosase frequent shots, better than larger doses and less shots...
proviron will fight estrogen sides + helping him get more ripped while bulking...
i used proviron in my first and second cycle without any other ai and it was a great addition...
nolvadex for pct was also great for me and all the people i know

You might want to do some more research chief.

HCG is best administered at 500iu 2x weekly. There are many studies on this.

Provirion as an AI is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Use something that's actually made to be used as an AI like Aromasin or Arimidex.

Clomid is superior to Nolvadex and it has been proven time and time again.

Thanks for the Neg's btw.

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

HCG is best administered at 500iu 2x weekly. There are many studies on this.

Provirion as an AI is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Use something that's actually made to be used as an AI like Aromasin or Arimidex.

Clomid is superior to Nolvadex and it has been proven time and time again.

x2

Did you actually neg him for his good advice, maged? That's not how we roll around here brother. Negs right back at ya...

Originally Posted by SloppyJ

You might want to do some more research chief.

HCG is best administered at 500iu 2x weekly. There are many studies on this.

Provirion as an AI is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Use something that's actually made to be used as an AI like Aromasin or Arimidex.

Clomid is superior to Nolvadex and it has been proven time and time again.

Thanks for the Neg's btw.

Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT

It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Originally Posted by maged

Nolvadex vs. Clomid for PCT

It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

This is an outdated article form BB.com. Clomid is rx'ed here in North America for male fertility issues, including LOW TESTOSTERONE.

If nolva is superior to clomid in your opinion can you explain why it is even while supressing your natural igf-1 levels? Please your own word is what I'm looking for not a cut and paste from a site that is over 10 years old. Thanks.

Originally Posted by CT

This is an outdated article form BB.com. Clomid is rx'ed here in North America for male fertility issues, including LOW TESTOSTERONE.

If nolva is superior to clomid in your opinion can you explain why it is even while supressing your natural igf-1 levels? Please your own word is what I'm looking for not a cut and paste from a site that is over 10 years old. Thanks.

Nolva also destroys your lipid profile.