Thread: WHY you don't use nolva with a 19-nor (tren, npp, deca)

Great Info, Thank you for sharing.

about time bro, thanks, maybe we can put an end to this question now. STICKY!

nice

Yup good abstract. Glad someone finally found and posted. I was on NPP about a year ago and added nolva and it was like gas, match, fire, BOOM gyno.

man just gotta jump in here,,, ive been using nor19s with nolva for years... Its not for everyone, but id venture to say some are more sensitive than others... having said that, im not using nolva at all anymore....

Heavy posted an article which said that after 4-5 weeks of nolva treatment, upregulation of prolactin receptors dwindled down. I believe he said something to the effect( I'm paraphrasing) that you should run nolva a couple weeks prior to starting a 19-nor included cycle. That way you don't run into upregulation problems, thus being able to use nolva while on the cycle.

Running nolva that long seems very suppressive though. Also, you can make any claim sound good by posting an article from the web. So it goes either way.

Lol! The debate continues. Ive used it and never had an issue, i probably wont use nolva much anymore though due to the joint pain it causes me.

formestane... just sayin

sticky this bish..!

Originally Posted by yerg

formestane... just sayin

Yes, this or any other AI.

Should be a sticky. Question comes up a lot.

I find it amazing how you guys think ONE ABSTRACT can answer a fairly complicated question. It doesn't even say whether they tested on female or male patients. Most likely it was some super old broads and I'm pretty sure a young/middle age male is a hell of a lot different than a grandma.

Don't get me wrong though, this helps the no 19nor + nolva debate.

Sticky!

Originally Posted by bigbenj

Heavy posted an article which said that after 4-5 weeks of nolva treatment, upregulation of prolactin receptors dwindled down. I believe he said something to the effect( I'm paraphrasing) that you should run nolva a couple weeks prior to starting a 19-nor included cycle. That way you don't run into upregulation problems, thus being able to use nolva while on the cycle.

Running nolva that long seems very suppressive though. Also, you can make any claim sound good by posting an article from the web. So it goes either way.

In the cancer subjects that up-regulation of the PGR's occurs, 100% see down regulation after 4 weeks of Nolva. So this may be a basis to start your Nolva 3-4 weeks BEFORE using Tren/Deca.

Cancer Res. 1981 May;41(5):1984-8.

Effects of tamoxifen on estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer.

Waseda N, Kato Y, Imura H, Kurata M.

Abstract

Twenty patients with primary breast cancer were treated with tamoxifen (10 mg p.o. twice a day) for 1 to 4 weeks. Before and after the tamoxifen administration, tumor specimens were obtained and assayed for estrogen receptors and progesterone receptors (PGR). Total cytosol estrogen receptor (ERC) and occupied nuclear estrogen receptor (ERN) were measured by hydroxylapatite assay, and unoccupied PGR was measured by the dextran-coated charcoal assay. ERC, ERN, and PGR were detectable in 11, 8, and 6 tumors, respectively, before tamoxifen administration. After tamoxifen treatment, ERC decreased in 10 of 11 ERC-positive tumors. Occupied ERN increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors treated with tamoxifen for a short period (1 to 2 weeks), but they decreased in all of three ERN-positive tumors after longer administration (3 to 4 weeks). PGR increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors after short-term tamoxifen treatment, but they decreased in all of three tumors treated by the drug for a longer period. Increased PGR responses were accompanied by an increase of ERN in two of three ERN-positive tumors. These results suggest that tamoxifen interacts with the estrogen receptor system in human breast cancer tissue and may be estrogenic during short treatment, while longer treatment results in an antiestrogenic response.

PMID:7214366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This study shows an association between nolva and the increased expression of the progesterone receptor. But, to be scientific, we have to acknowledge that this does not show a correlation between an upregulation of the receptors and gyno.

You could theorize that an upregulation of the progesterone receptor can lead to gyno, but that is just theorizing, and this study doesn't address that at all.

I use to use it with tren and had no problems.But I now only use nolva in pct along with clomid

Originally Posted by heavyiron

In the cancer subjects that up-regulation of the PGR's occurs, 100% see down regulation after 4 weeks of Nolva. So this may be a basis to start your Nolva 3-4 weeks BEFORE using Tren/Deca.

Cancer Res. 1981 May;41(5):1984-8.

Effects of tamoxifen on estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer.

Waseda N, Kato Y, Imura H, Kurata M.

Abstract

Twenty patients with primary breast cancer were treated with tamoxifen (10 mg p.o. twice a day) for 1 to 4 weeks. Before and after the tamoxifen administration, tumor specimens were obtained and assayed for estrogen receptors and progesterone receptors (PGR). Total cytosol estrogen receptor (ERC) and occupied nuclear estrogen receptor (ERN) were measured by hydroxylapatite assay, and unoccupied PGR was measured by the dextran-coated charcoal assay. ERC, ERN, and PGR were detectable in 11, 8, and 6 tumors, respectively, before tamoxifen administration. After tamoxifen treatment, ERC decreased in 10 of 11 ERC-positive tumors. Occupied ERN increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors treated with tamoxifen for a short period (1 to 2 weeks), but they decreased in all of three ERN-positive tumors after longer administration (3 to 4 weeks). PGR increased in three of five ERN-positive tumors after short-term tamoxifen treatment, but they decreased in all of three tumors treated by the drug for a longer period. Increased PGR responses were accompanied by an increase of ERN in two of three ERN-positive tumors. These results suggest that tamoxifen interacts with the estrogen receptor system in human breast cancer tissue and may be estrogenic during short treatment, while longer treatment results in an antiestrogenic response.

PMID:7214366 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Thanks for posting it. I couldn't remember where it was.

Originally Posted by exphysiologist88

This study shows an association between nolva and the increased expression of the progesterone receptor. But, to be scientific, we have to acknowledge that this does not show a correlation between an upregulation of the receptors and gyno.

You could theorize that an upregulation of the progesterone receptor can lead to gyno, but that is just theorizing, and this study doesn't address that at all.

It does sometimes become easy to see what we want in these studies. As an old dude I have to say again that this was stop for MANY years in BB -to use nolva with 19 nor's that is. I have a personal theory that some of this may have to do with the much higher doses of AAS that are in use today. However in my last run I tried aromasin and loved how dry it kept me with test and npp and will stay with it now. These studies are almost never with trained BBer's using real world doses of AAS so we do the best we can to gleam what we can. Thanks for finding that piece though!

Originally Posted by l69lou

It does sometimes become easy to see what we want in these studies. As an old dude I have to say again that this was stop for MANY years in BB -to use nolva with 19 nor's that is. I have a personal theory that some of this may have to do with the much higher doses of AAS that are in use today. However in my last run I tried aromasin and loved how dry it kept me with test and npp and will stay with it now. These studies are almost never with trained BBer's using real world doses of AAS so we do the best we can to gleam what we can. Thanks for finding that piece though!

I'm one who usually stays away from being convinced of something based on anecdotal evidence. But, in this case, we have quite a few guys who have always used the two together without any problems. Then a study comes out and finds an association between two variables that don't include gyno. Now everyone is convinced that there is an association between gyno and the upregulation of the progesterone receptors.

This could very well be true, but it hasn't been demonstrated, and the anecdotal evidence points otherwise.

I have said this many times before, but I'll reiterate that I'm in no place to debate this topic, and I have no opinion on this matter. I'm just trying to remain objective about the study and what it actually determined.

How about this situation hypotheticaly.
Say a person was doing a cycle with 19nors lets say NPP Or Tren.
Was taking arimadex @ what many of us like @.5mgs mon, wed & fri.
Along with cabergoline which I'd say most would run @.5 2x wkly.
And they began to have symptoms which then we would most likely assume they were progesterone related. Even though the cycle would ofcourse have test in it.
Would one then just up the dose of the adex & caber?
What would be the next step IF this wasnt working?

Here's the report.