Thread: New to Gear Need Help With a Cycle

you should lose get your bf down to around 15% before you run gear. it will work better and will prevent some of the side effects. if you can not wait then just run a test only cycle of 750mg weekly with ai's.

I would not worry about BF @ 15% and running gear . TONS of pros and power lifters run it way above that all the time . Now running something for leaning you out will work better if BF is lower but its all in your diet .

How long have you been training ? have you maxed out your natural size/strength ? I know its hard to wait for results but you would fair off better if your already stalled at your natural size. with that said , I didnt wait till them either lol.

Beginners cycle i would do is

This was wrote by a friend on another board and is a very good suggestion in my opinion .

1. its not very expsenvie to do
2 you only pin yourself twice a week . every day or every other day can suck when your new at doing it
Wk 1-12 500mg test....split into two inject to maintain steady blood levels...i.e. 250mg/mon and 250mg/thur.
Wk15 nolva 40mg ed
Wk16 nolva 30mg ed
wk17 nolva 20mg ed


Test C and E are fairly similar in half life ( the time it stays in your system ) so you want to wait 10-14 days after your last pin to let it get out of your system to start your PCT


That's it. Simple ,basic, and effective.
Give the test time to kick in ,Both cypionate and enanthate are long estered and take four to six wks to see any noticable results.That's the reason I feel they should be ran for twelve wks.Some will recommend a ten wk run.
Note. If you can,choose cyp over enth because it doesn't cause the painful reaction some people experience from enth.

Nolva should only be used for pct (post cycle therapy) unless you experience gyno symptoms like itchy nipples,soreness and burning or small lumps around the nipple.In this case run 20-30mg,s ed until symptoms go away...usually 2 or 3 days.Don't run nolva throughout your cycle,you could lower your estrogen level to the point that it hinders your gains.

This is just the small part of the cycle The three major components to any cycle are diet,rest,and training.Running gear only helps in this endeaver!!


or

If you want to throw in a oral to kick of test

Weeks 1-3or 4- d-bol 30 mgs ED
Weeks 1-12 Test enan or cyp 500 mg per week
Week 15 Nolva @ 40-50 mg per day
Week 16 Nolva @ 30 mg per day
Week 17 Nolva @ 20 mg per day

Originally Posted by lilgumby

I would not worry about BF @ 15% and running gear . TONS of pros and power lifters run it way above that all the time . Now running something for leaning you out will work better if BF is lower but its all in your diet .

How long have you been training ? have you maxed out your natural size/strength ? I know its hard to wait for results but you would fair off better if your already stalled at your natural size. with that said , I didnt wait till them either lol.

Beginners cycle i would do is

This was wrote by a friend on another board and is a very good suggestion in my opinion .

1. its not very expsenvie to do
2 you only pin yourself twice a week . every day or every other day can suck when your new at doing it
Wk 1-12 500mg test....split into two inject to maintain steady blood levels...i.e. 250mg/mon and 250mg/thur.
Wk15 nolva 40mg ed
Wk16 nolva 30mg ed
wk17 nolva 20mg ed


Test C and E are fairly similar in half life ( the time it stays in your system ) so you want to wait 10-14 days after your last pin to let it get out of your system to start your PCT


That's it. Simple ,basic, and effective.
Give the test time to kick in ,Both cypionate and enanthate are long estered and take four to six wks to see any noticable results.That's the reason I feel they should be ran for twelve wks.Some will recommend a ten wk run.
Note. If you can,choose cyp over enth because it doesn't cause the painful reaction some people experience from enth.

Nolva should only be used for pct (post cycle therapy) unless you experience gyno symptoms like itchy nipples,soreness and burning or small lumps around the nipple.In this case run 20-30mg,s ed until symptoms go away...usually 2 or 3 days.Don't run nolva throughout your cycle,you could lower your estrogen level to the point that it hinders your gains.

This is just the small part of the cycle The three major components to any cycle are diet,rest,and training.Running gear only helps in this endeaver!!


or

If you want to throw in a oral to kick of test

Weeks 1-3or 4- d-bol 30 mgs ED
Weeks 1-12 Test enan or cyp 500 mg per week
Week 15 Nolva @ 40-50 mg per day
Week 16 Nolva @ 30 mg per day
Week 17 Nolva @ 20 mg per day

^^^THIS is a really good post! nice and simple, to the point! the only thing I would disagree on is the nolva suggestion.... Nolva helps alleviate some of the sides of androgen therapy(though test alone genererally doesn't have too many pitfalls as far as side effects, especially at doses recommended in this post).. so, it is still pretty good advice... though I do have a slightly different opinion regarding nolva...

Nolvadex is going to help alleviate some water retention(you will def want it when running dbol).. and, the less water you gain, the less gains(water included) you will lose when you come off(weight loss when discontinuing a cycle can be a major mental issue with a lot of people, and the more weight you can retain(even if it means a few less pounds gained, on cycle) the better.. mentally, for most)

nolva will lower circulating estrogen to some degree(not a HUGE degree, but enough that you won't have too many estro sides, even given the dbol administration(at the recommended dose, in the above post)) but nolva will help keep cholesterol in check, and will help from becoming too shut down to fully recover(due to elevated estrogen)... at the doses in the above cycle, it would likely be all you need to combat estrogen)

I would recommend nolva be taken at 20mg ed while on dbol, and for about 5 days upon ceasing dbol, then at 10mg ed throughout the rest of the cycle... then at doses listed for pct(and you can add clomid into that pct for a little extra boost, if desired... clomid does have unwanted sides in SOME users, but not everyone.. it is worth at least trying, as it wil help kick natural test in more quickly than nolva alone... which will help retain lean mass gained from the cycle)....and retaining lean mass gained(and most people simply look at the scale, so water weight becomes an issue too, when you lose it.... many people don't realize you will lose a few pounds of water, regardless of what you do, and this becomes a mental issue... be aware of it, and don't let it get to your head is the best advice you could take from that.... just get the most you can out of the cycle, eat fairly clean, and don't gain excessive water, and it is less of an issue when you come off..... do expect to lose a few pounds, and don't let it get to you... pct usually sucks, but do it, and get through it, so you can retain your gains....

very good advice in the above post IMO, .. just throwing in my 2 cents regarding nolva and clomid

Originally Posted by overburdened

^^^THIS is a really good post! nice and simple, to the point! the only thing I would disagree on is the nolva suggestion.... Nolva helps alleviate some of the sides of androgen therapy(though test alone genererally doesn't have too many pitfalls as far as side effects, especially at doses recommended in this post).. so, it is still pretty good advice... though I do have a slightly different opinion regarding nolva...

Nolvadex is going to help alleviate some water retention(you will def want it when running dbol).. and, the less water you gain, the less gains(water included) you will lose when you come off(weight loss when discontinuing a cycle can be a major mental issue with a lot of people, and the more weight you can retain(even if it means a few less pounds gained, on cycle) the better.. mentally, for most)

nolva will lower circulating estrogen to some degree(not a HUGE degree, but enough that you won't have too many estro sides, even given the dbol administration(at the recommended dose, in the above post)) but nolva will help keep cholesterol in check, and will help from becoming too shut down to fully recover(due to elevated estrogen)... at the doses in the above cycle, it would likely be all you need to combat estrogen)

I would recommend nolva be taken at 20mg ed while on dbol, and for about 5 days upon ceasing dbol, then at 10mg ed throughout the rest of the cycle... then at doses listed for pct(and you can add clomid into that pct for a little extra boost, if desired... clomid does have unwanted sides in SOME users, but not everyone.. it is worth at least trying, as it wil help kick natural test in more quickly than nolva alone... which will help retain lean mass gained from the cycle)....and retaining lean mass gained(and most people simply look at the scale, so water weight becomes an issue too, when you lose it.... many people don't realize you will lose a few pounds of water, regardless of what you do, and this becomes a mental issue... be aware of it, and don't let it get to your head is the best advice you could take from that.... just get the most you can out of the cycle, eat fairly clean, and don't gain excessive water, and it is less of an issue when you come off..... do expect to lose a few pounds, and don't let it get to you... pct usually sucks, but do it, and get through it, so you can retain your gains....

very good advice in the above post IMO, .. just throwing in my 2 cents regarding nolva and clomid

Thanks over, some of the post was me and some from a friend that wrote it on another site . There has been a ton of debating on the net about whether to take ai on cycle or not. Me personally am not very prone to gyno or back in the 90s when no one would run a pct or anything i probably would have got it lol . I think if someone is prone to gyno they prob should take some kind of ai on cycle but VERY little since we do need some estrogen to help build muscle . I always have nolva, clomid and adedx on hand just in case i need it . I rely heavily on my diet and water intake to control bloat

Also when taking orals i use

1 gallon + a day of water ( this is all the time but more so when using orals)

Liv 52
Milk Thistle
Hawthorne Berry

some other good things

CoQ10
Red Yeast Rice
ProLiver
Saw Palmetto
Policosanol

IMLs advanced cycle support covers all the bases.

Originally Posted by lilgumby

Thanks over, some of the post was me and some from a friend that wrote it on another site . There has been a ton of debating on the net about whether to take ai on cycle or not. Me personally am not very prone to gyno or back in the 90s when no one would run a pct or anything i probably would have got it lol . I think if someone is prone to gyno they prob should take some kind of ai on cycle but VERY little since we do need some estrogen to help build muscle . I always have nolva, clomid and adedx on hand just in case i need it . I rely heavily on my diet and water intake to control bloat

Also when taking orals i use

1 gallon + a day of water ( this is all the time but more so when using orals)

Liv 52
Milk Thistle
Hawthorne Berry

some other good things

CoQ10
Red Yeast Rice
ProLiver
Saw Palmetto
Policosanol

ai's have there place in the bbing world, and they can be a crucial element... however...
I think these days.. especially after seeing what many people are using, and the advice being given, that ai's are probably the most overused compounds out there! and that nolva is possibly the most underused and most misunderstood compound out there(with the exception of proviron)... nolva is a must in nearly every cycle IMO.. yet most people either don't understand why, or someone that doesn't completely understand nolva, or it's effects on the body.. is too quick to just give someone advice that may not be the best way to go about things, period!

I could copy and paste all day long.. most people won't read long drawn out examples of how nolva works.. they dismiss it as 'old news' and turn to the 'newer' ai's as an answer to everything(assuming that dropping estrogen to near zero values is the cure-all...) this is not the case at all... estrogen plays many key roles in the body that you cannot replace by just increasing testosterone to try to compensate... serotonin, hgh, insulin, igf1,lipids and lipid metabolism, bone growth and health, and many other very important bodily functions, chemicals, etc... are dependent upon estrogen, and/or estrogen is key in their regulation and correct function within the body...

this is where nolva comes in.. it is an estrogen agonist/antagonist, depending on the bodily tissue, function, regulation, etc...

nolvadex, in many tissues, displaces estrogen from the receptor or other type of binding site.. and it will either exhibit an agonist or antagonist 'signal' depending on the tissue, bodily function, and regulation of neurotransmitters, etc.. in mammary tissue(breasts, pecs.. you get the idea), it displaces estrogen.. and it can prevent, or shrink gynecomastia(and sometimes prevent breast cancer due to overstimulation of the ER(estrogen receptor), and yes, men can get breast cancer too!).. ai's DO NOT DO THIS! for someone that has existing gyno, lowering estrogen, by halting aromatization, is not sufficient in most cases.. the small amount of estrogen that is in your body can still ellicite the response at the ER(to a lesser degree, yes.. but the signal is still present)... yet you see nearly EVERY single response to a gyno post says 'take letro'(letro is the most effective at lowering estrogen, though not the strongest mg for mg(ARIMIDEX IS STRONGER MG FOR MG)... but letro usually wont get rid of gyno on it's own, and neither will adex).. why is this, if it is so effective at lowering estrogen? because you still have receptors with estrogen attached.. and you will if you don't COMPLETELY ERADICATE ESTROGEN... or use nolvadex... which sounds like a better idea?

on the other hand, nolva CAN shrink gyno, and prevent it to begin with(without an ai of any sort!!!!).. NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST WAY TO ATTACK IT.. BUT IT IS POSSIBLE!!! and nolva only lowers circulating estrogen to a small degree(comparatively to letro or adex)... NOLVA STOPS THE ESTROGEN AT THE ER!!! IT KNOCKS ESTROGEN OFF, AND ANTAGONIZES THE RECEPTOR(MEANING IT DOES NOT GIVE OFF AN ESTROGENIC SIGNAL, EVEN THOUGH IT IS ATTACHED TO THE RECEPTOR(IN MANY TISSUES, I'M REFERRING TO MAMMARY GLANDS RIGHT NOW)....

nolva can actually IMPROVE cholesterol levels!!! yep, you heard that right.. it can improve them.. (it does this by acting as an estrogen.. estrogen improves cholesterol)
and, being that ai's are so NOTORIOUS for messing up your cholesterol, it can help to have nolva present in the blood when taking an ai, thus offsetting some of the ai's bad sides...

nolva can help prevent prostate cancer(it has recently been proven that what was thought to be the cause of prostate cancer, in fact, is not the main cause...it must have estrogen present to cause the ill effects(DHT was once thought to be the sole cause of prostate cancer...)nolva acts as an antagonist in prostate tissue, as well as mammary tissue...

nolva will help keep neurotransmitters that rely on estrogen to regulate theirselves(serotonin being the main one) at 'normal' levels... which helps with aas induced 'depression'.. it, after all, is seldomly caused by aas, but rather by estrogen!

nolva helps regulate bone tissue.. because it acts as an agonist in that tissue...(you can actually increase your height by taking nolva during puberty, because the estrogen response(due to aromatization of high test levels during puberty ) is what causes the endplates to form, and you to stop growing in height!!!

now, onto ai's.. they are important.. but not as important, and far over 'advised' as many would like to think....ai's lower circulating estrogen(THIS IS NECESSARY IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING MASSIVE AROMATIZATION, AS COMES WITH HEAVY USE OF AROMATIZABLE ANDROGENS(AND ORALS ARE GENERALLY EVEN WORSE BECAUSE, LIKE THEIR ANDROGEN COUNTERPARTS, ORALS ARE STRONGER(MOST OF THE TIME) THAN THE BASE MOLECULE.. THUS THE ESTROGEN THEY PRODUCE IS STRONGER.. AND INCURS MORE DAMAGE(USUALLY).. ai's should be used on a basis of 'only when necessary'.. to bring estrogen levels down.... that is it(unless dieting or doing comps, and the dryness they impart is what you need at that time for a competition).. they do help with this.. and have a place in the competitors 'bag of tricks'...

other than that, you should stick to nolva(and ed administration, with ai's to fall back on only when estrogen levels are high(or to help with pct.. or shows).... this leads to far less health risks, as well as less unwanted sides(due to 'too low' estrogen levels)the body requires estrogen to function properly.. don't deprive it of it, or you WILL have adverse effects!@!!!...

it is not necessary to keep estrogen at extremely low levels, and it is inhibitory of achieving the full gains possible were it at 'normal' levels(use the ai's to keep your body at 'normal' levels.. don't abuse it!! it will catch up with you and it will produce many unwanted side effects...

nolva daily, and ai's only as needed(unless doing a comp, etc).... this will produce the best gains, the least side effects, and better overall health...

ask anyone who has tried for years to control gyno with letro... they will tell you that their joints hurt, their bones hurt, they don't have a very good sense of well being(this falls into the neurotransmitter category).. and that their gyno returns(many times much worse than it was before letro treatment) upon cessation of letro...

now, ask someone who controls puffiness with nolva, and if e2 levels get too high, they use an ai... you will hear a much different story!!! you will generally not hear someone using this protocol talking about how to keep their gyno at bay(cause it keeps coming back every time they stop using letro... and they all gotta stop at some time because the sides usually get to them bad enough at some point or another, they have to take time off of it!!!), you will generally not hear them say how they end up with erectile dysfunction(due to the letro use), you will not talk about them feeling depressed, and having achy joints... because it RARELY happens when then nolva.. then ai.. protocol is used!... when it does come time to use an ai(and at some point you will need to if you are prone to aromatization, and you are taking enough androgens(that aromatize)... the nolva helps offset nearly every side effect of short term usage of ai's!!!

look it up and research it's mechanisms of actions, and then do the same with the ai's.. think about it for a while.. and it all makes sense.... get the estrogen off the receptor it is having ill effects at.. and you are usually symptom-free.. in the rare case you have to use an ai.. you don't get rebound gyno when you cease the ai.. because you are attacking it at the source of the problem....

just my 2 cents...

Overb, don't be modest, that^^^ was more than 2c. Lol

Originally Posted by Vibrant

Overb, don't be modest, that^^^ was more than 2c. Lol

Hate to see if he gave more than his 2cents lol .

OP read this:

First Cycle and PCT