Thread: Nolvadex... useless or useful?

NOLVA for PCT and in worse cases where an AI wont/didnt prevent gyno a low dose during cycle may be an option.

nolva/tamox IS NOT useless, but clomid seems better for PCT and the combo of Tamox and Clomid seem best for pct.

you do know about PCT and also AI's right?

check this out i made:

A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read


SERMs and Aromatize inhibitors

Well today I would like to talk about something EVERYONE should know about before ever considering any sort of steroid use .
Now I feel steroids can be used fairly safely but there are some basics you need to know or you may end up with lifelong issues or a costly one.
Now that was not meant to seem as bad as it may sound, I am talking about Gynaecomastia mainly and why it is so important to understand. I also want to talk about the compounds that can help you avoid it, help it and possibly cure it.
Sadly once gyno has developed extensively and has been there for some time, there might not be any other option but to get your breast glands cut out if you wished to get rid of the gyno. There has been some help with high dosed AI use like Letro, but that is very unhealthy to the body as some estrogen is needed for functions.

Sounds like a bad idea not to know what an AI or SERM is now huh?

Thats why I want to talk about Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) and Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) today.
They are VERY easy tools to use that everyone should have on hand to keep any Gyno issues at bay. They also aid you in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) possibly leading to a faster, fuller recovery after a steroid cycle .

If you are new to this all then here is a small definition of what Gyno is:
Gyno is the abnormal development of large mammary glands in men, resulting in breast enlargement.

Yah thats right you might just grow a pair of tits if you dont know what you're doing!
It really bothers me when I see so many posts like; how do I take away my gyno or is this gyno? or even I have gyno and I am taking an AI with my Tren and Test, so why is there gyno? (The last one was due to not knowing there is more than one type of gyno that is handled differently then with just estrogen related gyno)

These are things that should have been well researched before even considering the use of any sort of steroid.
There is more than one type of gyno, so make note of it!
Most of the Gyno issues you hear about are related to estrogen and seems to be the most common, thats where some might get into trouble when using other compounds that dont Aromatase but are progesterone/progestin based like Deca or Trenbolone .

Progestin seems to have a role in gyno development also and would warrant the use of not just an AI but also something to lower your progestin/prolactin levels like a prolactin antagonizer called Pramipexole while using compounds where things other than estrogen might be involved.
Prog-Gyno can even lead to leaky nipples! Yes like milk type thing!
I know trust me***8230; I was once young and new to all this myself.
Now I never had full blown gyno but I did get the wet nipples on a deca cycle early on in my Studies!
I found using an AI helped keep this away without a prolactin antagonizer, but that wont work for everyone, so gain HAVE IT ON HAND JUST IN CASE!

There seems to be a lower chance prog-Gyno issues when keeping estrogen levels low during cycles of say for e.g.; Deca and teste or tren and test, but I would not solely rely on an AI and would ALWAYS recommend having a prolactin antagonize like Prami (Pramipexole) on hand when using compounds like NPP, Deca or Trenbolone even if you do not plan to use it.

So what AI, SERM or Prolactin antagonizer should I take?

Well there are a few out there, along with some debate on which is better or what combo is better, but the basics are basics and any pick will do.



So what is a SERM?

SERM stands for "Selective estrogen receptor modulators".
SERMs are a class of compounds that have an effect on the estrogen receptor. SERMs effects on tissue vary, giving it the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like actions in various tissues. It also stimulates an increase of follicle-stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland.[1]
What we care about its blocking of estrogen at the breast glands and the follicle-stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland which is why we use it in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT).

At the end of a steroid cycle your own bodys natural hormonal production will most likely (if not every time) be suppressed/shut down and although stopping all steroids and waiting would eventually lead to recovery (if that was what was going to happen in your case). But the thing is it may take much longer to recover and that means a much greater chance of lost gains and emotional mood swings amongst other things.
That is why a SERM is highly recommended, SO much so that some even think if you DONT do a PCT that you wont recover!
Now although that is not true, it is true you SHOULD ALWAYS have a good PCT ready and on hand EVERY time you start a steroid cycle.
Doing so would aid the body in stimulation of the endocrine system and get things going in the direction you want quickly! (recovery).


What is an AI?
An AI stands for Aromatase inhibitor. (AI's) are a class of drugs originally developed for and used in the treatment of breast cancer and ovarian cancer. AIs also have the off-label use to treat or prevent Gynaecomastia in men. Aromatase is the enzyme which synthesizes estrogen in your body, sometimes even right from testosterone . AIs are usually taken to block the production of estrogen.
An AI should be on hand EVERY time a steroid cycle is started EVEN if you dont think you will need it and dont plan to use it, HAVE IT ON HAND!

Another good thing about keeping estrogen in check is Blood pressure, you might have some bloating and higher blood pressure if your estrogen levels are too high or unstable (fluctuations usually from miss-use of an AI and steroid or it would just be high all around in most cases).
That means using an AI will not only keep Gyno away but it may also lower your BP and help keep bloat/edema away!
Awesome stuff I think!


Cant I just use a SERM like Clomid for gyno and PCT?

NO! Well I mean you could, but it is not optimal and I strongly recommend against it.

This is why:
SERMS like Clomid, Tamox and others, only BLOCKS estrogen at some receptors like the breast glands. But it WILL NOT lower estrogen in your body!

If you have Gyno setting in and started up Clomid or Nolva sure you would block the gyno but your estrogen levels would still be building up and in my opinion that is NOT a good thing.
If you were not very smart, didnt think ahead and didnt have an AI on hand and only SERMs, then yes you could start a low dose while you wait for the AI to come, BUT USE THE AI for gyno control long term!
I ALWAYS tell people to use an AI for gyno/estrogen control; its just the most effective and healthy way to go about it.
Save the SERM for PCT use and IF NEEDED the onset of gyno while waiting for the AI to take full effect (if that ended up being the case).
Other than that I feel a SERM should not be used for gyno control and only as part of a PCT.

Some of the older guys may have used a SERMs for gyno control, but we know better now and its time to move with the times.

I am going to list the most used and well known of these compounds with a small description on each, then I will move into how you may want to implement its use and some standard ways of doing so that are generally accepted.




SERMs:

Clomiphene Citrate-
Increases production of gonadotropins by inhibiting negative feedback on the hypothalamus. It is also used in female infertility. Clomiphene has estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects in the body. It also appears to stimulate the release of gonadotropins, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and leuteinizing hormone (LH).[2] Dosing of 30-100mg daily seems the norm for PCT use.

Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex )-
Tamoxifen is usually used as an endocrine (anti-estrogen) therapy for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer in women. It is an antagonist of the estrogen receptor in the breast, while in other tissues it acts as an agonist sort of like how Clomid does.[3] Half-life is about 6 days, so ed to eod dosing is best for PCT use. 20-50mg daily seems the norm for this.

Toremifene Citrate (Torem/Fareston)-
Torem Is SERM similar to Tamoxifen (Nolva). Torem is also used to treat breast cancer and also does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissues like breast tissue (anti-estrogen). It can act as an antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, which could also increase testosterone production (why I recommend it as a PCT). Torem also seems to have a better ability to increase testosterone levels over Tamox because its andro to estro ratio is much greater than Tamox/Nolva. Half life is about 5 days. Dosing daily to eod is recommended for PCT use. Dosing of Torem for PCT at 20-100mg ed seems to be the norm.

Raloxifene (Ralox)-
Raloxifene is a second generation Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM). Raloxifene is similar in its action to that of tamoxifene but with much less of an increase in testosterone levels when compared to Tamox or Torem. The half-life is only about 27hrs so daily dosing is optimal for use in PCT. Dosing of 30-100mg ed seems to be the norm for PCT use.




Prolactin Antagonizer (PA):

Prami (Pramipexole)-
Prami has actions similar to Cabergoline (another type of PA) but with a significantly more positive impact on libido and mood. Pramipexole acts as a dopamine agonist and one of dopamine's main function as a hormone is to inhibit the release of prolactin. Pramipexole plays an important role in the inhibition of prolactin secretion which is important to some using some types of steroids where prolactin build up may be an issue. Prami is also used for treating early-stage Parkinson's disease (PD) and restless legs syndrome (RLS).[4] Pramipexole has a half-life between 8-10 hours. Normal dosing is 0.25-0.5mg ED (pre-bedtime dosing is recommended as it make some feel a bit sleepy)




AI's:

Letrozole (Letro)-
Letro lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Letro has a very high rate of estrogen suppression in the area of 90%+, so care should be given to dosing as over suppression could lead to side effects associated with low estrogen levels, like achy joints, low energy levels etc. This can be an issue with all AIs but Letro is very good at its job and that leads to helping prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of AAS.[6] Letro has a fairly long active life so dosing of every other day, to even 1-2 times a week is optimal at doses of 0.25mg - 1.3mg.

Anastrozole (aka LiquiDex/Dex)-
Dex lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Dosing of 0.5 mg to 1 mg a day should reduce serum estradiol about 50% in men,[5] which leads to helping prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of AAS. Active life is fairly short so daily to eod dosing is optimal.

Exemestane (Stane/Aromasin )-
Exemestane lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Exemestane has about an 85% rate of estrogen suppression and does this by selectively inhibiting aromatase activity in a time-dependent and irreversible way. That helps prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of steroids. Stane has a fairly short active life so daily to every other day dosing is optimal.




As you can see there is quite the selection of compounds and this I not all of them.
I think these are the most often used, safe and effective for our topic today.

How would I use this in a steroid cycle?

Do I take it as soon as I stop them?

Do I wait a few weeks?

Well I will give you a few examples of how you would properly incorporate these compounds into your cycle, but something you need to understand is the compounds you are using.
Steroids have differing release and clearance times!
Some might leave your system in hours, like with more orals if you were to stop them today you could start PCT tomorrow (I do not recommend oral only cycles BTW, this is just an example).
But if you were taking for example teste or testcyp, well if you stopped today you would wait 1-2 weeks before starting your PCT because their release times and active life are much longer then the orals.
But some injectables are also very short in active life like NPP or trenAce, with then you would wait 2-4 days and start pct. It is very important to understand EVERY compound you put in your body to be able to use them safely and effectively.

I will list a few examples of AAS cycles with an AI and PCT/SERM implemented:

1#
Wk1-12 500mg teste ew
Wk1-14 0.6mg e3d (2X a week) Letro
Wk14-18 PCT Clomid 50mg ed

2#
Wk1-14 500mg TestE ew
Wk1-12 300mg Deca ew
Wk4-15 0.25mg Prami ed (pre-bedtime)
Wk1-16 12.5mg ed Stane
Wk16-20 50mg Clomid and/or 20mg Nolvadex or 40mg Torem ed


3#
Wk1-10 50mg TrenAce eod
Wk1-12 100mg TestProp eod
Wk1-10 0.25mg Prami ed (pre bed)
Wk1-13 12.5mg Stane ed
Wk12/13-17 50mg Clomid ed


4#
Wk1-14 400mg TestE ew
Wk1-14 400mg MastE ew
Wk1-16 12.5mg Stane ed
Wk16-20 30-50mg Clomid ed or 20-30mg Nolvadex ed


You can see there are varying ways of doing things, and some may debate on what is best (in my op what I put is best lol) but the basics are there and should be followed regardless of your opinion.

I hope this helps someone out with their Gyno, AI or PCT questions!





ENJOY!










References

1) Riggs BL, Hartmann LC (2003). "Selective estrogen-receptor modulators -- mechanisms of action and application to clinical practice". N Engl J Med 618***8211;29. Selective estrogen-receptor modulators -- mecha... [N Engl J Med. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
2) Endocr J. 2010;57(6):517-21. Epub 2010 Apr 6. Clomiphene citrate elicits estrogen agonistic/antagonistic effects differentially via estrogen receptors alpha and beta. Kurosawa T, Hiroi H, Momoeda M, Inoue S, Taketani Y. Clomiphene citrate elicits estrogen agonistic/antag... [Endocr J. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
3) Br J Pharmacol. 2006 January; 147(S1): S269***8211;S276.Published online 2006 January 9 Tamoxifen (ICI46,474) as a targeted therapy to treat and prevent breast cancer Tamoxifen (ICI46,474) as a targeted therapy to treat and prevent breast cancer
4) Pramipexole (Sifrol and Sifrol ER) for Parkinson***8217;s diseaseMedicine Update August 2010: Date published: December 2009 Updated: August 2010 Pramipexole (Sifrol and Sifrol ER) for Parkinson
5) Effects of Aromatase Inhibition in Elderly Men with Low or Borderline-Low Serum Testosterone Levels. Benjamin Z. Leder, Jacqueline L. Rohrer, Stephen D. Rubin, Jose Gallo and Christopher Longcope Effects of Aromatase Inhibition in Elderly Men with Low or Borderline-Low Serum Testosterone Levels
6) Effects of Suppression of Estrogen Action by the P450 Aromatase Inhibitor Letrozole on Bone Mineral Density and Bone Turnover in Pubertal Boys Sanna Wickman, Eero Kajantie and Leo Dunkel Hospital for Children and Adolescents, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, FIN-00029 HUS, Finland Effects of Suppression of Estrogen Action by the P450 Aromatase Inhibitor Letrozole on Bone Mineral Density and Bone Turnover in Pubertal Boys

That's a good read bro. I knew most of it but a refresher is always good. I'm actually gonna keep it for reference.

Still though, if I use something like forma stanzol, why bother with nolvadex? Where nolvadex just blocks estro, forma mixed with clomid gives me the same effect and then some...
Is it just a preference? I've never touched nolva but maybe ill try it for shits and giggles next cycle. I filled a script from my doc but never bothered to use it. (Not on trt either I cycle)

My next cycle is test e, tbol, proviron, and var. maybe ill try and see if recovery goes any smoother.

u can use nolva with a 19nor.. anyone who says u cant is a broscientist

That's the first time I've ever heard that. Ever.

Originally Posted by noodles1010

That's the first time I've ever heard that. Ever.

u should read more

especially what the ifbb pros say

donkey, i read a TON and everything, thread, dr advice, broscientist has always said never use nolva with deca or tren. Main reason being, it upregulates progesterone and can up your chances significantly to progesterone induced gyno. Youre telling me the pros that ive met, talked to, are all wrong?! not trying to be a wise ass, im kinda curious and shocked... first time ever right now.

toss me some links, im more than curious to read em. ive never seen em and ive looked for over two years and always see the same answer

Originally Posted by noodles1010

donkey, i read a TON and everything, thread, dr advice, broscientist has always said never use nolva with deca or tren. Main reason being, it upregulates progesterone and can up your chances significantly to progesterone induced gyno. Youre telling me the pros that ive met, talked to, are all wrong?! not trying to be a wise ass, im kinda curious and shocked... first time ever right now.

really.. IFBB pros discussed illicit drug usage with you in person?



really..

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey

really.. IFBB pros discussed illicit drug usage with you in person?



really..

im not naming names but one in particular i became pretty friendly with in arizona... and yea we touched the subj but never went deep into it. but i told him what i was on, and he said as long as u stay away from x, x, and x, you will be good. yes he did tell me that nolva was a big no no. i have nothing to gain from this, or lying, so u gotta take my word for it. its a iron gym that a lot of pros go to actually when they are there.
either or, tell me y.

so can anyone say anything to turn my thought around on this cause honestly i still think its a ancient useless drug that serves no purpose given the new stuff we have now.... i still think there are far better alternatives.

but none the less im still curious to read or hear what i cant find on my own

Originally Posted by noodles1010

im not naming names but one in particular i became pretty friendly with in arizona... and yea we touched the subj but never went deep into it. but i told him what i was on, and he said as long as u stay away from x, x, and x, you will be good. yes he did tell me that nolva was a big no no. i have nothing to gain from this, or lying, so u gotta take my word for it. its a iron gym that a lot of pros go to actually when they are there.
either or, tell me y.

weird.... in your OP you say that nolva is used for "estrogen control"... when it is most certainly not.. guess you didnt touch on that with your IFBB pro friend

well anyways.. real ifbb pros have actually told me that nolva can be used with 19nors.. as long as you keep estrogen at the appropriate level..via an AI...

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey

weird.... in your OP you say that nolva is used for "estrogen control"... when it is most certainly not.. guess you didnt touch on that with your IFBB pro friend

well anyways.. real ifbb pros have actually told me that nolva can be used with 19nors.. as long as you keep estrogen at the appropriate level..via an AI...

First I didn't say estrogen control so if you're gonna quote me quote me correct. I said it "blocks" estrogen. Sure it does other things but like I said, there are better options out there. You don't think so?

Donkey your too focused on trying to be an asshole try being more focused on being helpful.

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey

weird.... in your OP you say that nolva is used for "estrogen control"... when it is most certainly not.. guess you didnt touch on that with your IFBB pro friend

well anyways.. real ifbb pros have actually told me that nolva can be used with 19nors.. as long as you keep estrogen at the appropriate level..via an AI...

And btw the nolvadex and estrogen have NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. Ever heard of prolactin? Progesterone? Progesterone induced Gyno? Look it up, regardless of your ai nolvadex DOES indeed upregulate progesterone. Do your research and stop dreaming that u know the pros u read about in flex mag.
Seriously bro... Move on. Ur just counter productive here.

Next!!....

Originally Posted by noodles1010

Donkey your too focused on trying to be an asshole try being more focused on being helpful.

He doesnt have to try.

so weird my one buddy has always said the same shit your saying about nolva, probly why ive never ran it either.. im kinda curious to see if someone has a good answer to this

Originally Posted by Jdubs

so weird my one buddy has always said the same shit your saying about nolva, probly why ive never ran it either.. im kinda curious to see if someone has a good answer to this

for pct i like
clomid 50/25/25/25
unleashed/ post cycle by protein factory to replace what most use nolva for
forma stanzol
daa

but i also blast hcg 500iu split dosed for a few weeks going into pct to get things going again. i have to start looking into hmg as well. but im getting off topic just thought id throw it out there for u since i dont use nolva and want to let u guys know what i do use for pct.

Originally Posted by noodles1010

i read so many conflicting stories on it im not sure what to believe. For example, when on a test cycle and using nolva as estrogen control, or in pct, when u come off you can have a nasty estrogen rebound.

i did quote you correctly, but alright.

progesterone/prolactin need to be in the presence of high levels of circulating estrogen in order to cause gyno..

so..

ok cool. im gunna try out the stanz, and clomid. pct is kinda the most important part of a cycle, if you would like to keep any of your gains..kinda a waste of money to run cycles than no pct

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey

i did quote you correctly, but alright.

progesterone/prolactin need to be in the presence of high levels of circulating estrogen in order to cause gyno..

so..

Ok first I stand corrected that u used the oneeee time in my entire thread that I referred to nolvadex as estro control however every single time before and after that i referred to it as a blocker. But take ur brownie point if u want that 1.

Second.... progesterone need to be in the presence of high estrogen?! Thats opinion!!!
Progesterone causes Gyno in tren users and that doesn't convert to estrogen... there is no abundance of estrogen smart ass. .
I will agree when it comes to prolactin I personally think u have to have high estrogen levels... But progesterone?
Ill explain. in women progesterone plays a role in breast growth. Both men and women have progesterone. In men excessive amounts of progesterone can stimulate breast growth just like it does in women!!!!! That's a fact!!!
Yes, estrogen is normally the root cause of Gyno, but tren, a 19nor, is a progestin. What is progestin? A synthetic form of progesterone that has the ability to bind to the progesterone receptor!!! So now add in nolva. By adding nolvadex you've upregulated progesterone and have a progestin (tren) circulating and waaa laa progesterone gyno and even more so with deca. Yes deca converts to estrogen but its progesterone Gyno 99% of the time because its a fucking progestin! ... Holy shit! It can be taught!

estrogen gyno=AI + nolva
progestin gyno=caber

they dont bind to the same receptors..

and now its confirmed by a mod as well... im done with this i dont even care anymore... u dont use nolva with progestins.
fuck nolva... i dont even wanna know anymore. lolol im out for tonight fellas take care.

Originally Posted by noodles1010

and now its confirmed by a mod as well... im done with this i dont even care anymore... u dont use nolva with progestins.
fuck nolva... i dont even wanna know anymore. lolol im out for tonight fellas take care.

According to heavy iron. Nolva can be ran with a 19nor as long as you start the nolva 2 weeks prior to your cycle. I'm with donkey on this one.

Originally Posted by Standard Donkey

i did quote you correctly, but alright.

progesterone/prolactin need to be in the presence of high levels of circulating estrogen in order to cause gyno..

so..

This is fact not opinion, OP

Ok... So check it out. What I'm saying is this is WHAT I WAS TAUGHT... So obviously I'm going to defend the only thing I know and what I've been taught. I've given some thoughtful and IMO factual answers, but I am HUMBLING myself asking someone to TEACH me otherwise. Even you donkey... Even tho my first impression of you is that your an asshole, but you obviously know what you're talking about. I can't take that from you. I'm not trying to come on here saying fuck u you don't know shit blah blah blah. I'm asking for help and info and instead wind up going somewhere else with the convo.
I just don't like people who come off defending nolvadex like they own fucking stock in it lol. Cause truth be told there areeeeee much better options these days. That is a fact no one can deny and there are blood tests open for public view all over to prove that.
The hpta nonsense that follows nolvadex is bro science. I wanna know factual info. I just want to educate myself on it cause like I said, I was taught that if nolvadex could grow horns, it would be the devil lol

cant we all just get along?