repoj

I am an amature bodybuilder and have been cycling 1 test with 4 ad for about 3 weeks now and noticed significant gains in strength and body wieght. I have a freind that has used deca, test and esspecially sustenon 250 in the past and has been recomending sustenon to me for some time now. I would like to try it but he boasts that on a cycle of 5 weeks on, 5 weeks off that I can easily gain up to 20 pound in 5 weeks.
My only concern is that my freinds, family and co-workers will all know that I'm using if I gain that fast. I wanted to try just ONE amp of sust but my friend suggests that I take the 5 week on-5 week off cycle or I'm not going to get the effect that I'm looking for when using the sust.
Is there anyone out there that can give me some input in this, maybe suggest further appart injections, every month or so maybe for more gradual-looking effects, or another injectable? I didn't want to try Dianabol or Anavar because I read that they can be very toxic to the liver and have strong aromatizing effects. Any advise on my issue would be greatly appreciated.

Mudge

Too short of a cycle. Sust should kick in between weeks 3-5 and then you'd just up and quit? 10-12 weeks IMO and your standard clomid post cycle.

I would like to see a prop vs sust argument, and I bet prop would win. If your buddy is gaining 20 quality pounds in 5 weeks he must be a monster, because sust is not magical fruitilicious. Its good but its nothing but a mix of 4 tests.

Every month injections??? Madness! That is what we call yo-yoing your test levels. Cyp is the longest acting test, 12 day half life, 10 for enan. Go with one of those for once a week injections if you want, prop is known for less bloat though but you will be doing EOD injections at least because it has a 2 day HL.

If you want moderate results stick to moderate doses (dont go over 500mg test a week). Dont stack with other gear, just do test, keep nolva on hand (probably wont need it with only 500mg if you weigh enough and are not gyno prone), and grab your clomid for the end of your cycle.

Dbol/Anavar/Winny/Abombs/Halo are all orals which are 17aa steroids, which is to avoid being broken down by the liver. Medical studies I've seen use far more than almost anyone sane will ever use, and for longer periods of time, so supprisingly gear users are not pushing the envelope here with orals IMO (for the most part). DBol will bloat you up a bit, great pumps though - but it can affect your skin, shower 3x a day if you throw it in your stack if needed. Anavar is more for strength than size gains, very mild drug, works by increasing the red blood cell count and is pretty expensive.

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repoj

I appreciate your input greatly. My friend pretty much swaers by sustenon 250. I have done tons and tons of research on steroids and thought that because of how low sustenon aromatises that that was the one for me.
But what he suggested was a 5 week on, 5 week off, than another 5 week on cycle. But because I wanted to get gradual gains, that muscle is gunna just burst on through one way or the other I guess huh. So should just deal with the fact that I try it or dont, and deal with what other people think.

MJ23

Repoj - I think thats definitely a good approach, and Mudge is right, 5 weeks wont cut it, U probably need almost that just to kick start the sustanon250

"It is hard to believe a man is telling the truth, when you know you would lie if you were in his shoes."

repoj

How much can I expect to gain in poundage if I do a 5 week on, 5 off, than another 5 on cycle?

Mudge

I think its hard to say because "nobody" does that short of a cycle, I hear that the Europeans are more interested in lower doses/less time on though than Americans are. Supposedly they do 4 week cycles (obviously not all of them).

You wont recouperate I'd say on a 5 week break only, remember you will be off for 2 weeks before clomid, then another 2 weeks of clomid thereapy and THEN your 5 weeks begins, so your looking at alot longer.

Appropriate cycle lengths of 10 weeks allow for about 2 cycles a year, because of off time. Unless you get blood work done to prove that your "recouperated" then you should stick to what works, IMO of course.

This would work like, 10 weeks on, 2 weeks off (test levels start to drop due to half life), clomid therapy begins for 2-4 weeks (most stick with 2), thats 14 weeks. Many people count that as the entire cycle, so that means 14 weeks + 14 weeks wait before next cycle, thats 28 weeks which is more than half a year, being 52 weeks. Not everyone uses this method though.

How much stuff do you have? Sust is a bit pricey for what it is, I would choose something else. If your not afraid of ED/EOD injections Prop is the "best". Fast acting, short half life means faster recoup as well. Many claim to hold less water on prop also.

You wont find alot of support for 5 week cycles though like I said, feel free to try it though if you are set on it, but experience points to another way. I remember hearing about a gym trainer who suggested 2 week cycles only, for beginners this person was recommending over a gram a week on test and claimed that 2 week breaks between the cycles was enough to recouperate with ZERO clomid therapy, yeah right.

5 weeks my guess though, 7-10 pounds, but it all depends on your diet and training. If you dont eat it you wont gain it. Do the math on what your eating now and add say 500 calories a week and see how it goes. I would suggest 1.5g-2.0g protein per body pound. Also some of that is going to be water, water weighs 6.8 pounds per gallon, so it might be safe to say 1/4-1/2 is water, which means not much actual gains.

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Mudge

Something else to consider, is the belief "longer cycles produce keepable gains." I believe in this to some degree myself. You will find that after a few cycles alot of people are in the 12-16 week range. Alot of the more experienced users stay on longer, and have long recouperation times. There is a long time user on another board who was on for nearly a year (I'm not recommending that at all) and his blood levels were amazingly good. He was on 7xx something mg a week total, Fina was done throughout the cycle.

There are lots of schools of thought but most people especially early on stick to something in the 8-10 week range with moderate doses, so that is where people are going to keep pointing you.

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crackerjack414

here is my short cycle that i can pull of 20lbs gains in 6 weeks
100mg prop ed1-6
75mg tren ed 1-6
50mg dbol every day 1-6
3-10 test eth or sust 500mg

repoj

Thanks mudge, that helps. I think hat according to that adivice, I'll try the 10 week on, 4 week off theory with the sustenon, just cause my buddie supports it so. I'll be trying it withing about two monthes but I'll keep you and everybody else that advised me on my progress. I'll be doing a two week cycle of Mag 10 here in about two days. I have a couple bottles that I baught and I'm wanting to see the performance of the stuff.

Mudge

Remember thats 2 weeks off, 2 weeks clomid and THEN time off

The longer the ester in your desired test the longer it will take for blood levels to drop low enough to use clomid, some people wait 3 weeks making a 10 week cycle really 13 before even beginning recouperation with clomid, and then of course the wait thereafter.

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repoj

Oh ok, so the first two weeks after the cycle, take two weeks off-THAN two weeks clomid, THAN the 5 weeks off. That makes more sence. I'd like to get maximum gains from the sust but I am also not stupid enough to reframe from keeping my indocrine system up.

Mudge

Thats one way to look at it, honestly though some people count the 4 weeks (2+2) as time on, and thusly you'd be 5 weeks, 2 weeks, 2 weeks, + 9 weeks time off making 18 total weeks for only a "5 week cycle" of shots, which again is really at least 7 because it takes 2-3 weeks for the HL to reduce enough that the clomid will actually do anything for you, and then it takes time to recover the natural test.

So again, this is why I think 5 weeks is a waste, your hardly ever going to be ON, and your on for such a short period of time things are just getting started. If your buddy is getting GREAT results from 5 week cycles like this, lets hear about how about it, and how he is cycling.

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repoj

He's going to be looking for a good product pretty soon, and I told him to look out for me. He's got some suppliers in line so I'm not worried about that. I also trust him as far as judgment is concerned. When he cycles I'll keep you posted. When he gets his supply I'm probably gunna get about 10 amps to start mine as well. I'll keep regular updates.

Mudge

I would go with vials if you can get them, I dont see a reason to prefer amps unless its all you can get. I would imagine them to be more expensive, as well as a little more pain to deal with, but whatever works works.

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repoj

by the vials, are you talking about the rubber top bottles, or the little glass-champage bottles?

Mudge

Yep, rubber top, 10-20cc usually. Something to think about might be E5D injections or E4D. If you were dead set on only getting 10cc, you could run an injection every 5th day of 250mg and it would be 350mg a week and last you 7 weeks, still not much difference though hmm.

How much do you weigh?

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repoj

I would almost think that the glass ampules would be better, by the way not to sound stupid, but what IS and e5d or e4d injection?

Mudge

Every 4/5 day. Why would glass amps be better? As long as you keep a sterile needle to pull, replace it to inject, you should have no problems. If you dont use a new needle every time, its a risk. I can provide pictures posted recently of a shoulder abcess from someone who reused needles if you like.

The dude saved $10 to go through that, www.getpinz.com

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bigpapa

Dont forget that Sustanon remains active in your system for up to 4 weeks after your last injection. You should begin Clomid treatment right after 4 weeks. I'm a big beliver of a short cycle. In order to obtain maximum results from you cycle you should jump start it with D-bol or Anadrol (along with Sustanon). Dont taper up, start high, keep it 4-5 weeks and than take a 4 week break( after Sustanon clears you system). If you prolong your cycle after that point you'll see more side efects and your gains will come to a halt. Just remember that you have to start high in order for this tipe of cycle to work. It looks like that

Sustanon 500 mg a week
Decca 400 mg a week
D-bol 30 mg ad

All of the above for a duration of a cycle (4-5 weeks)
Keep Nolvadex on hand and eat around 4000 Kcal ad.

Mudge

You are one of the only users in the world claiming to have such a unique problem. Side effects are for people who are using too much. Since you are not suggesting front loading, and yet you claim side effects past 5 weeks with only 500mg a week, I would believe you are gyno prone or very small and should not be doing 500mg a week, which almost anyone can handle without these "side effects" you mention. Without front loading it takes about 4 weeks alone to simply get blood levels up.

I have come across newbie idiots who have done a gram a week for 12 weeks and had no gyno.

Another thing to keep in mind is you have more estradiol receptors if your carrying alot of bodyfat, so gyno can be harder to ward off if you are north of 15% bodyfat.

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bigpapa

I'm not talking about myself here, it's for a person who is doing his 1st or 2nd cycle. Ive seen guys on 3gr a week with no gyno and someone who was doing 750 mg and had gyno after 3 weeks of juicing. For someone it can be as small as 30 mg of D-bol a day wise guy.

repoj

Hey big papa, I appreciate al;l the help here, but in all honesty I only have a limited amount of cash at any given time. In my opinion, about 200 bucks is all anybody should pay for 10 amps of sust, and like I said before I would try d-bol and/or anadrol if they werent so toxic and prone to aromatize. I can get the clomid from a guy that I know that runs a nutrition shop, and I can get the sustenon from my buddy. I'm also not stupid enough to NOT know that if he can get me clomid he can probably get me anything.
Either on the 5 weeks on, 5 off, than 5 on-or-the 10 weeks on like you said mudge, and than the 6 weeks off including clomid I'm using clomid in both but I think that after reviewing your last statemen over the fat issue I'll not keep my injections (when I try the sust) over 250mg/d. I'm at about 14-15% bf, but usually when I cycly my pro steroids or pro hormones I lean up some so maybe I'll cycle those right before a BIG cycle.

Mudge

Your amps are overpriced then, $200 is a rip, or your buddy is making double under the table. Sust itself is overpriced, but amps add additional cost, about the only thing more expensive has to be redijects.

Some people are gyno prone, but if your only doing 250mg/wk you will probably be fine, even 400-500 you will probably have no problems.

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Mudge

I dont know what this experience is your relaying, I've never heard of or seen gyno simply by going over 5 weeks for a first timer.

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repoj

My friend told me that anything over 15 bucks for sustenon an amp is a rip-seing as how it's a 50/50 chance on getting good shit anyways.

Mudge

I'd be willing to pay half that Alot of the people I work with spend $15 just for lunch daily though.

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aceman

Before you start a new cycle what is a proper blood level?

repoj

do you ask to know if I know what I'm talking about, or because you honestly don't know?

aceman

to find out. I have my blood checked after every cycle which is 10 weeks on 4 weeks off and sometimes my liver numbers read alittle high but my physician says thats normal for using cyp. and not to worry. Does that sound correct?

repoj

to tell you the truth aceman, I have no clue. I'v never used cyp or anything else for that matter. Read the beginning of my thred here, I'm going to be trying a cycle of sustenon in about two or 3 monthes from now, I'll let everybody know how my cycle goes.
If you have any questions, try asking Mudge-the dude knows his shit. Just to give you a clue though, a buddy of mine uses 250 mg er week of sustenon 250 in his cycles, and his liver tests are always good. I never even thought realy of getting a test going, to be BRUTALLY honest, my doctor is a good aquaintance of mine. He knows that I build, bit him knowing that I cycle isn't first on my list of things to do. I'll get around it though, I'm not so pig headed to not care for my inners.