Planning The First Cycle

Derek Vinyard · 11-12-2003, 07:27 PM

I’ve been working out as hard as I could since 1995 starting at 160lbs. Every year I gained weight, the first year 25lbs. Every year a little less than the previous. Except in the last year I have gained nothing measureable. I workout extremely hard, I eat plenty of good food. I admit I could sometimes use more rest, but with my occupation it’s not easy. I have varied my training, I have even tried relaxing the training for a while and hit it hardcore again (I lost a little mass while resting).

Anyways, I want out of this plateau.

I’m not done trying to reach my natural best. I’m going to give this a couple more serious attempts, until at least the end of next summer. So, I’m in absolutely no hurry and if I’m successful I will continue naturally. But at 32 years of age, training for 8 years I have my doubts if my body will develop anymore.

I’ve always considered the use of steroids and have no objection to their use, but personally I won’t touch them until I feel I need them to progress any further. I also do not wish to just start a cycle with whatever is available. So, before the end of next summer I am going to do my homework.

I know the basics, I have been in the gym for 8 years. :) I was considering a deca 200mg/week with d-bol 20mg/day, but from what I’ve seen here many guys don’t seem to like the old stack.

Please give me your opinions on the perfect first cycle for me. I’m not looking to gain insane weight, I’m looking to gain moderate weight. Something I can maintain and call my own.

Hair loss does run in my family.

**Mudge** · 11-12-2003, 07:48 PM

You dont gain weight from running or lifting weights, it comes from what you eat.

Test beats deca hands down.

You have alot of research to do with hairloss, I have posted a few links and some information here before.

Derek Vinyard · 11-12-2003, 08:04 PM

I overload the muscles, I feed and rest the muscles. I understand I need to eat more than I burn, no problem there Mudge. I've tried increasing calories, I get plenty of protein and I eat at least 6 times a day. Increasing my diet has just put insulation around my midsection.

I'm almost %18bf now. Highest I've been in about 2 years. I actually weigh more now than ever, but I only the lean stuff counts.

For Test what would you reccomend? Some of the guys I workout with suggest that Test is not needed for a novice. They say it will work great, but I should save it for later. I personally thought sust was a good idea, but they also said that would be a good later choice.

**Mudge** · 11-12-2003, 08:07 PM

Now we have evidence then, at least IMO - because I had the same issue. Went from 234 to 240 with only fat to show for it.

At your age, I would not recommend anything other than test (as the base), and test is the base of every "smart" stack anyway - deca only just seems beyond stupid to me. In the days when people didn't do frequent blood tests I'm sure it seemed intelligent to a handfull of people, nowdays you will be hard pressed to see people in the know who support deca cycles.

What type is up to you, once the ester is removed test is test. Enanthate/cypionate will take abour 4-5 weeks before it starts showing real results, so dbol to kick start it would be recommended. Propionate starts working about by the end of week 1, but has to be shot ED or EOD, I am currently using prop daily which may well be annoying to a first timer.

I can point you to a few people who were shut down for nearly a year from deca, or one guy who has a shriveled left nut that he was never able to bring back.

Derek Vinyard · 11-13-2003, 01:26 PM

Thanks Mudge

Okay, Test enanthate or cypionate at around 300mg/wk should be a good first dosage? Prop looks like too many applications for a first-timer. D-bol is out, too much DHT and my hairline is looking for an excuse to retire.

Equipoise looks very similar to deca, without the associated problems. Good appetite boost, nitrogen retention, good pumps, sounds great. Looks like their is absolutely no need for deca. How about 200mg/week?

I’m sure these two stack well. Is there anything else that could boost the gains on this cycle keeping the risks low?

I’ll need a good plan to get everything back up and running asap when I’m done the cycle. And I’ll need an anti-estrogen during the cycle (prov or nolva). HCG should be involved?

Primo sounds really good too.

Not sure about the dosages I would require. But I understand the needles are easier on the body than the orals. I'm not afraid of a little dart.

**Mudge** · 11-13-2003, 02:06 PM

300 is pretty low for a doseage, but its more than your putting out naturally.

You could probably recouperate fine without HCG, I am only 27 but I feel as if I need it, my genetics dont allow me to bounce back like some people.

Primo is so widely faked that I would tell you to assume it is all deca, seems to risky to bother with for me. Being it is so elusive it has a high price tag and I think you are paying for nothing but fairy tailes and "ooh, ahh, no side effects" - which also means very little in gains and again too many fakes.

Nolvadex is a good post cycle item, you may want some on hand in case gyno shows up but that is pretty unlikely at your doses. You will generally find test in 200mg/ml so that would leave you doing 1.5cc a week, although ideally it should be shot twice a week.

Orals have thier place but I am going to guess that they may be hell on the hairline, I know I hear that winstrol just about rips your hair out, I dont have MPB in my family so I got lucky there.

You could look into proscar/propecia/finasteride, I know very little about hair stuff though, there is a site that sells products for people and I think has some info as well which I can PM to you if interested. Some people are saying that they lose more hair post cycle than while on...

Quote:

The following is a rundown on which hair loss products are compatible with various anabolics:

Nizoral 2% Shampoo - This can be used with any anabolic including testosterone, deca, fina, anavar, etc. Has been shown in various studies to regrow hair similar to Minoxidil 2%. It is thought to work via antiandrogen and anti-inflammatory properties.

Azelaic Acid 5% + Minoxidil 5% - Azelaic Acid is a 5-AR inhibitor like finasteride without the systemic side effects (loss of sex drive, etc.) Only some users experience these side effects. One can alternately use finasteride in place of azelaic acid. Azelaic Acid inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

Spironolactone 2% and 5% - Spironolactone is a powerful antiandrogen that blocks ALL types of androgens from attached to the androgen receptor in the scalp. Spironolactone helps to prevent hair loss caused by various anabolics including fina, testosterone, winny, anavar, etc.

All three of the products used together have a synergistic effect and high rate of regrowth in most users.

Derek Vinyard · 11-13-2003, 05:01 PM

I don't mind raising the dosage of the test. From what I understand about 500mg/wk is considered average. So, I would consider 400-500mg/week in two doses np.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay for Prim prices for Deca.

The hairline thing shouldn't be a real problem, as long as I stay away from the high DHT substances. I'll get a perscription for propecia and see what else I can use as insurance.

I'm assuming the Eq would really aid the cycle, is 200mg/wk too low? I don't using d-bol for 3-4 weeks, would it be more effective at the start of the cycle or when the test starts working?

**Mudge** · 11-13-2003, 05:47 PM

I would use dbol over eq, but thats JMO. EQ works over long periods of time, so dont expect much of anything dramatic from it.

Appetite, vascularity, thats about it. Some like it, some say it sucks.

BUSTINOUT · 11-13-2003, 05:49 PM

d-bol at the start of cycle.

Test 500mg/wk and EQ at 400mg/week. I'm an old fart too so I feel you pain. lol

BUSTINOUT · 11-13-2003, 05:49 PM

BTW, I'n one of those that love EQ

11-12-2003, 07:27 PM	#1
Derek Vinyard Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 12	Planning The First Cycle I’ve been working out as hard as I could since 1995 starting at 160lbs. Every year I gained weight, the first year 25lbs. Every year a little less than the previous. Except in the last year I have gained nothing measureable. I workout extremely hard, I eat plenty of good food. I admit I could sometimes use more rest, but with my occupation it’s not easy. I have varied my training, I have even tried relaxing the training for a while and hit it hardcore again (I lost a little mass while resting). Anyways, I want out of this plateau. I’m not done trying to reach my natural best. I’m going to give this a couple more serious attempts, until at least the end of next summer. So, I’m in absolutely no hurry and if I’m successful I will continue naturally. But at 32 years of age, training for 8 years I have my doubts if my body will develop anymore. I’ve always considered the use of steroids and have no objection to their use, but personally I won’t touch them until I feel I need them to progress any further. I also do not wish to just start a cycle with whatever is available. So, before the end of next summer I am going to do my homework. I know the basics, I have been in the gym for 8 years. :) I was considering a deca 200mg/week with d-bol 20mg/day, but from what I’ve seen here many guys don’t seem to like the old stack. Please give me your opinions on the perfect first cycle for me. I’m not looking to gain insane weight, I’m looking to gain moderate weight. Something I can maintain and call my own. Hair loss does run in my family.

11-12-2003, 08:04 PM	#3
Derek Vinyard Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 12	Eating I overload the muscles, I feed and rest the muscles. I understand I need to eat more than I burn, no problem there Mudge. I've tried increasing calories, I get plenty of protein and I eat at least 6 times a day. Increasing my diet has just put insulation around my midsection. I'm almost %18bf now. Highest I've been in about 2 years. I actually weigh more now than ever, but I only the lean stuff counts. For Test what would you reccomend? Some of the guys I workout with suggest that Test is not needed for a novice. They say it will work great, but I should save it for later. I personally thought sust was a good idea, but they also said that would be a good later choice.

11-13-2003, 01:26 PM	#5
Derek Vinyard Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 12	ok Thanks Mudge Okay, Test enanthate or cypionate at around 300mg/wk should be a good first dosage? Prop looks like too many applications for a first-timer. D-bol is out, too much DHT and my hairline is looking for an excuse to retire. Equipoise looks very similar to deca, without the associated problems. Good appetite boost, nitrogen retention, good pumps, sounds great. Looks like their is absolutely no need for deca. How about 200mg/week? I’m sure these two stack well. Is there anything else that could boost the gains on this cycle keeping the risks low? I’ll need a good plan to get everything back up and running asap when I’m done the cycle. And I’ll need an anti-estrogen during the cycle (prov or nolva). HCG should be involved? Primo sounds really good too. Not sure about the dosages I would require. But I understand the needles are easier on the body than the orals. I'm not afraid of a little dart.

11-13-2003, 05:47 PM	#8
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	I would use dbol over eq, but thats JMO. EQ works over long periods of time, so dont expect much of anything dramatic from it. Appetite, vascularity, thats about it. Some like it, some say it sucks.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

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11-12-2003, 07:48 PM	#2
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	You dont gain weight from running or lifting weights, it comes from what you eat. Test beats deca hands down. You have alot of research to do with hairloss, I have posted a few links and some information here before.

11-12-2003, 08:07 PM	#4
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	Now we have evidence then, at least IMO - because I had the same issue. Went from 234 to 240 with only fat to show for it. At your age, I would not recommend anything other than test (as the base), and test is the base of every "smart" stack anyway - deca only just seems beyond stupid to me. In the days when people didn't do frequent blood tests I'm sure it seemed intelligent to a handfull of people, nowdays you will be hard pressed to see people in the know who support deca cycles. What type is up to you, once the ester is removed test is test. Enanthate/cypionate will take abour 4-5 weeks before it starts showing real results, so dbol to kick start it would be recommended. Propionate starts working about by the end of week 1, but has to be shot ED or EOD, I am currently using prop daily which may well be annoying to a first timer. I can point you to a few people who were shut down for nearly a year from deca, or one guy who has a shriveled left nut that he was never able to bring back.

11-13-2003, 05:01 PM	#7
Derek Vinyard Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 12	I don't mind raising the dosage of the test. From what I understand about 500mg/wk is considered average. So, I would consider 400-500mg/week in two doses np. I certainly wouldn't want to pay for Prim prices for Deca. The hairline thing shouldn't be a real problem, as long as I stay away from the high DHT substances. I'll get a perscription for propecia and see what else I can use as insurance. I'm assuming the Eq would really aid the cycle, is 200mg/wk too low? I don't using d-bol for 3-4 weeks, would it be more effective at the start of the cycle or when the test starts working?

11-13-2003, 05:49 PM	#9
BUSTINOUT Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,418	d-bol at the start of cycle. Test 500mg/wk and EQ at 400mg/week. I'm an old fart too so I feel you pain. lol