whats going on

maxima · 12-23-2003, 12:53 PM

Hey guys,

i've been on a cypinate (QV) and deca(Tokkyo) cycle i'm on my 7the week and my strength has increased but no noticable gains my protien and carbs are over 200g a day can anyone tell me whats the hell is going on.

thanks everyone

BabsieGirl · 12-23-2003, 01:01 PM

You say, "noticable"............it usually take 6 weeks to make a change.

What were your stats before and what are they now?

prolangtum · 12-23-2003, 01:02 PM

The TT Deca is probaly bunk. What are the dosages of each? 200g p and 200 g c is only 1600 cals, though, I hope you are getting quite a bit more than that.

**Prince** · 12-23-2003, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabsieGirl
You say, "noticable"............it usually take 6 weeks to make a change.

6 weeks?

No way...there should be weight and strength gain in 2-3 weeks.

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 01:08 PM

Cypionate takes about 5 weeks, but 200g protein is enough for someone about 100 pounds on a bulker. Sounds like you aren't eating nearly enough.

BabsieGirl · 12-23-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
6 weeks?

No way...there should be weight and strength gain in 2-3 weeks.

So with that type of supplement, you should see a change that soon? didn't know that.
Sorry.

**Prince** · 12-23-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BabsieGirl
So with that type of supplement, you should see a change that soon? didn't know that.
Sorry.

he is talking about anabolic steroids.

but, according to Mudge 5 weeks, I disagree, at least with strength and water weight gain.

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 01:29 PM

What are your total calories like? I eat 4000-4500 calories daily, protein is about 448g a day, 200g is not enough naturally unless you are pretty small.

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
but, according to Mudge 5 weeks, I disagree, at least with strength and water weight gain.

Cypionate is slow for blood levels to build up. Sustanon has some prop in it and it takes 3 weeks for me to see results, prop takes about a week with daily injections and a 4.5 day active half life versus 12 for cypionate.

Unless you've run cypionate (I haven't for over a year) that is what you will hear from others as well, that is why the orals are run the first 4-6 weeks.

maxima · 12-23-2003, 01:55 PM

thanks for all your replies my calories i think are pretty high i always feel full and when i train i go heavy 4 to 6 reps my strength increased about 20% but i'm on my 7th week and no noticable gain could it be that i'm holding alot of water and i really can't see the difference

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 02:04 PM

If you were holding water a good deal of it should be in your muscles, which you would be measuring with your cloth tape. You always feel full, I dont believe that translates to a number. Some people eat one meal a day and feel full, because that is what their bodies are used to.

Deca wont work without a true bulking diet, other than some joint 'protection.' As for the test, it likewise works best on a bulking diet, otherwise you'd end up with a cutting cycle on it.

Sounds like the strength is good, but unless you put on 5 inches on your waist or something I dont think your diet is anywhere near where it should be.

I say again, 200g protein is enough for a 100 pound person, and I hope you aren't that small. I never dip below 330g, and on my bulk I try to hit my daily 448g. How much do you weigh?

Diet is where its at, the gear isn't going to do all the work for you.

maxima · 12-23-2003, 02:17 PM

thanks mudge for your reply u might be right about the cals for sure but i forgot to mention i do feel harder and my pumps are ok and to answer your question i'm around 168 pounds another thing so in your opinion the deca isn't doing a thing for me i'm gonna look lika santa claus eating 5000 cals aday

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 03:04 PM

I weigh more than you do, I would assume you dont need 5,000 calories to bulk. I would add 1000 calories to whatever you are doing though. I use my waist as my guide somewhat, I dont like going 2" past over what I normally carry, but getting some fat is part of bulking for the most part.

If you want a better bulker and not getting too fat, keep the food clean, and WRITE IT DOWN. If you treat your diet like a science you can fine tune it, if you eat what and when you feel like it, you will show it.

prolangtum · 12-23-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maxima
thanks for all your replies my calories i think are pretty high i always feel full and when i train i go heavy 4 to 6 reps my strength increased about 20% but i'm on my 7th week and no noticable gain could it be that i'm holding alot of water and i really can't see the difference

I can feel full off of 1k cals. Fullness means nothing. What makes you more full, a salad or a candy bar? Which packs more calories? If your not tracking your diet down, then dont be suprised when your gains suck.

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 04:29 PM

First time I started eating 6 times a day I felt full all the damn time, and seriously I was supprised I could eat so damn much. You get used to it, but like has been said, full means very little - because your stomach adjusts to what you put in it.

Starvation dieters can feel full on thier diet of lettuce, tissue paper and ice cubes, but they are not getting what they need in thier bodies.

Write your diet down, or you are killing your gains. I also dont believe 200g protein is enough, not by a longshot.

I'd go with a dead minimum of 1.5g per pound but that is my opinion, and I am not dieting expert, so take it for what you will.

I notice that crappy carbs fill me up like a mofo, but if I eat a keto style diet I can eat and eat and eat.

dropteeth · 12-23-2003, 07:08 PM

should the food be spread out...or are big meal good with just as many calories????

**Mudge** · 12-23-2003, 07:17 PM

Positive nitrogen retention requires spreading your protein intake through the day, this means that the muscle will hold aminos as opposed to releasing them.

Also, eating larger meals is a 'bad' thing for several reasons. Picture a barbeque, do you throw a whole bag of charcoal on the flame at once? I sure hope not, slow and steady wins the race here if you dont want to choke the flame. Everything all at once is inneficient, wastefull, blah blah blah.

Evil ANT · 12-24-2003, 09:18 AM

Eating over 400 grams of protein in one day is insane, and I really don't know how people do it. Of course, I'm not a huge meat eater.

On any given day I probably take in about 300 grams of protein (max), and most of it comes from tuna and supplements.

Still, I've been making amazing gains with test and dbol eating about 300 grams of protein a day. Guess it all varies person to person.

Just a guy · 12-24-2003, 10:59 AM

man i weigh 230 and 400grams aint shit.... Jus get some protein.... make like 4 or 5 shakes a day.... i make like 4 , 75 Gram shakes.... but someone told me that i was waisting protein because it cant absorb past 50.... i dont believe that.... But hey its probably true... but i CANNOT see a way to get 400grams+ any other way.... i even sometimes make 100Gram shakes with some weight gainer....

**Mudge** · 12-24-2003, 11:21 AM

We all can utilize various amounts, a generic rule of 30 or 50 is not going to apply to both a 6 year old girl and a 300 pound bodybuilder so the idea that a single number can be used is completely bogus and assinine.

Please kick that person in the ass next time you see them.

For me anything over 330-360 is a little bit of work as far as eating goes, but I do what I can to stay close to 450g a day currently. Bouncer has gone to 700g on bulkers.

JerseyDevil · 12-26-2003, 02:53 AM

Mudge, I thought I remembered you saying even on a cycle you didn't go over 2,700 calories or so per day. Upping them by 50% is quite a jump. How much fat are you gaining with the increase?

**Mudge** · 12-26-2003, 07:23 AM

I never specifically would have said that because I have been over that long ago. When cutting though yes, I had eventually cut back to an average of 2300-2400 calories, which is when I dropped all the way down to 210 pounds.

I have been 'bulking' for some time now, and as I have always recommended I dont step up my calories overnight, I didn't just start yesterday bro.

I have about 2" extra on the waist, but bodyfat itself is not largely increased.

JerseyDevil · 12-26-2003, 10:42 AM

You were probably talking about cutting and I thought you meant maintenance calories.

**Mudge** · 12-26-2003, 10:50 AM

It doesn't take much for me to maintain or cut slowly, I have a desk job.

GodlyBODY · 12-26-2003, 04:44 PM

I have ran both products you are talking about and was greatly dissapointed. I believe they are both severly underdosed. I hope things pick up...

12-23-2003, 12:53 PM	#1
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9	whats going on Hey guys, i've been on a cypinate (QV) and deca(Tokkyo) cycle i'm on my 7the week and my strength has increased but no noticable gains my protien and carbs are over 200g a day can anyone tell me whats the hell is going on. thanks everyone
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9

12-23-2003, 01:01 PM	#2
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	You say, "noticable"............it usually take 6 weeks to make a change. What were your stats before and what are they now?
	Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

12-23-2003, 01:02 PM	#3
prolangtum Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 353	The TT Deca is probaly bunk. What are the dosages of each? 200g p and 200 g c is only 1600 cals, though, I hope you are getting quite a bit more than that.
	Mod @ Bulknutrition Forums Mod @ superiormuscle.com Mod @ steroidsupport.com Designersupps.com Bulknutrition.com Blackstarlabs.com

12-23-2003, 01:08 PM	#5
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	Cypionate takes about 5 weeks, but 200g protein is enough for someone about 100 pounds on a bulker. Sounds like you aren't eating nearly enough.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-23-2003, 01:55 PM	#10
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9	thanks for all your replies my calories i think are pretty high i always feel full and when i train i go heavy 4 to 6 reps my strength increased about 20% but i'm on my 7th week and no noticable gain could it be that i'm holding alot of water and i really can't see the difference
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9

12-23-2003, 01:29 PM	#8
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	What are your total calories like? I eat 4000-4500 calories daily, protein is about 448g a day, 200g is not enough naturally unless you are pretty small.

12-23-2003, 02:04 PM	#11
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	If you were holding water a good deal of it should be in your muscles, which you would be measuring with your cloth tape. You always feel full, I dont believe that translates to a number. Some people eat one meal a day and feel full, because that is what their bodies are used to. Deca wont work without a true bulking diet, other than some joint 'protection.' As for the test, it likewise works best on a bulking diet, otherwise you'd end up with a cutting cycle on it. Sounds like the strength is good, but unless you put on 5 inches on your waist or something I dont think your diet is anywhere near where it should be. I say again, 200g protein is enough for a 100 pound person, and I hope you aren't that small. I never dip below 330g, and on my bulk I try to hit my daily 448g. How much do you weigh? Diet is where its at, the gear isn't going to do all the work for you.

12-23-2003, 02:17 PM	#12
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9	thanks mudge for your reply u might be right about the cals for sure but i forgot to mention i do feel harder and my pumps are ok and to answer your question i'm around 168 pounds another thing so in your opinion the deca isn't doing a thing for me i'm gonna look lika santa claus eating 5000 cals aday
maxima Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9

12-23-2003, 03:04 PM	#13
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	I weigh more than you do, I would assume you dont need 5,000 calories to bulk. I would add 1000 calories to whatever you are doing though. I use my waist as my guide somewhat, I dont like going 2" past over what I normally carry, but getting some fat is part of bulking for the most part. If you want a better bulker and not getting too fat, keep the food clean, and WRITE IT DOWN. If you treat your diet like a science you can fine tune it, if you eat what and when you feel like it, you will show it.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-23-2003, 04:29 PM	#15
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	First time I started eating 6 times a day I felt full all the damn time, and seriously I was supprised I could eat so damn much. You get used to it, but like has been said, full means very little - because your stomach adjusts to what you put in it. Starvation dieters can feel full on thier diet of lettuce, tissue paper and ice cubes, but they are not getting what they need in thier bodies. Write your diet down, or you are killing your gains. I also dont believe 200g protein is enough, not by a longshot. I'd go with a dead minimum of 1.5g per pound but that is my opinion, and I am not dieting expert, so take it for what you will. I notice that crappy carbs fill me up like a mofo, but if I eat a keto style diet I can eat and eat and eat.

12-23-2003, 07:08 PM	#16
dropteeth Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 43	should the food be spread out...or are big meal good with just as many calories????
dropteeth Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 43

12-23-2003, 07:17 PM	#17
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	Positive nitrogen retention requires spreading your protein intake through the day, this means that the muscle will hold aminos as opposed to releasing them. Also, eating larger meals is a 'bad' thing for several reasons. Picture a barbeque, do you throw a whole bag of charcoal on the flame at once? I sure hope not, slow and steady wins the race here if you dont want to choke the flame. Everything all at once is inneficient, wastefull, blah blah blah.

12-24-2003, 09:18 AM	#18
Evil ANT Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 629 Photos: 3	Eating over 400 grams of protein in one day is insane, and I really don't know how people do it. Of course, I'm not a huge meat eater. On any given day I probably take in about 300 grams of protein (max), and most of it comes from tuna and supplements. Still, I've been making amazing gains with test and dbol eating about 300 grams of protein a day. Guess it all varies person to person.

12-24-2003, 10:59 AM	#19
Just a guy Senior Gear head Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,320 Photos: 1	man i weigh 230 and 400grams aint shit.... Jus get some protein.... make like 4 or 5 shakes a day.... i make like 4 , 75 Gram shakes.... but someone told me that i was waisting protein because it cant absorb past 50.... i dont believe that.... But hey its probably true... but i CANNOT see a way to get 400grams+ any other way.... i even sometimes make 100Gram shakes with some weight gainer....
	CUTTING! Was 260lbs. Now 02/09/05 236lbs Height:5'8 Age: 20 Bench:395 Leg press:975

12-24-2003, 11:21 AM	#20
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	We all can utilize various amounts, a generic rule of 30 or 50 is not going to apply to both a 6 year old girl and a 300 pound bodybuilder so the idea that a single number can be used is completely bogus and assinine. Please kick that person in the ass next time you see them. For me anything over 330-360 is a little bit of work as far as eating goes, but I do what I can to stay close to 450g a day currently. Bouncer has gone to 700g on bulkers.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-26-2003, 02:53 AM	#21
JerseyDevil GO Buckeyes! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern, NJ Posts: 5,185	Mudge, I thought I remembered you saying even on a cycle you didn't go over 2,700 calories or so per day. Upping them by 50% is quite a jump. How much fat are you gaining with the increase?

12-26-2003, 07:23 AM	#22
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	I never specifically would have said that because I have been over that long ago. When cutting though yes, I had eventually cut back to an average of 2300-2400 calories, which is when I dropped all the way down to 210 pounds. I have been 'bulking' for some time now, and as I have always recommended I dont step up my calories overnight, I didn't just start yesterday bro. I have about 2" extra on the waist, but bodyfat itself is not largely increased.

12-26-2003, 10:42 AM	#23
JerseyDevil GO Buckeyes! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern, NJ Posts: 5,185	You were probably talking about cutting and I thought you meant maintenance calories.

12-26-2003, 10:50 AM	#24
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	It doesn't take much for me to maintain or cut slowly, I have a desk job.

12-26-2003, 04:44 PM	#25
GodlyBODY DnA BodyBuilding Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: C-TOWN Posts: 24	I have ran both products you are talking about and was greatly dissapointed. I believe they are both severly underdosed. I hope things pick up...
	Success comes before work only in the dictionary.

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