CLOMID or NOLVADEX

LeeUK · 01-06-2004, 11:08 AM

i'm on my first real serious steroid course having experimented a couple of times before with weaker courses in previous years.
This time i am making sure i dont get any dreaded bitch tits or other nasty side effects. Luckly i have never had any probs but wanna make sure!!

the question (which i have read up on before on this forum) is should i take Clomid during my course and after or is it better to take Nolvadex, can i still get bitch tits even taking just Clomid which should help keep my testosterone levels up?

Whats the general opinion out there???

thanks for the help

Power Rabbit · 01-06-2004, 11:21 AM

Unless you are prone to sides or are jabbing 2g of test a week, I would say save your money on anti-e's during cycle. That aside, from what I hear nolva beats clomid in both side effects(it has less) and effectiveness. Id use nolva for post.

Alot of people that run anti-e's on cycle are running the more expensive stuff....like arimidex('dex') or femara.

**Mudge** · 01-06-2004, 11:26 AM

You are going to be shut down period, clomid is not going to stave off HPTA suppression while on steroids.

I would just stock up on nolvadex, for gyno "protection" and for post cycle, I no longer buy clomid.

LeeUK · 01-06-2004, 11:33 AM

thanks, i will give Nolvadex a go i think
so does nolvadex also help get your test levels up and help keep gains as Clomid is supposed to do??

LeeUK · 01-06-2004, 11:53 AM

also how much should i take?? is 1 x 20mg tab a day for the length of my course about right??

**Mudge** · 01-06-2004, 11:53 AM

IMO even better than clomid, but it is hard to decipher just because clomid makes me feel like crap. There are various studies pitting the two against each other, Dr.JMW on the boards recommends nolvadex over clomid as do more and more people nowdays.

Antiestrogens as treatment of female and male infertilities.

Buvat J, Buvat-Herbaut M, Marcolin G, Ardaens-Boulier K.

Centre d'Etude de la Pathologie de l'Appareil Reproducteur et de la Psychosomatique (EPARP), Lille, France.

Antiestrogens are widely used to treat eugonadal anovulation, luteal phase deficiency (LPD) and oligospermia. This paper reviews the rationales, endocrine effects, profertility effects and side effects of these treatments. Furthermore, we present our own experience of the use of antiestrogens in this field. We have compared the results of clomiphene citrate (CC) to those of tamoxifen (TAM) in a randomized study including 66 infertile women presenting eugonadal anovulation (n = 26) or LPD (n = 40). Both drugs obtained the same pregnancy rate of 80% at 9 months in the anovulatory patients. Conversely, CC was superior to TAM in the LPD cases (pregnancy rates at 6 months of respectively 40 and 11%). The abortion rates were of 11% on CC versus 36% on TAM. Both drugs significantly increased the luteal phase length and plasma progesterone level to the same extent. The results of endometrial biopsies suggest that the difference in their effects on female fertility could result from a detrimental effect of TAM on endometrium. The rates of the side effects proved to be almost identical on both drugs. Thus the use of TAM is not justified as a first-step treatment in ovulation disturbances. TAM should be reserved for patients who experience severe visual side effects on CC. We have also tested TAM in 100 subfertile males. In the 92 oligospermic males, TAM significantly increased the mean sperm count only in the normogonadotropic patients, but as much whether oligospermia was idiopathic or not. Sperm improvement was not significantly related to any hormone criterion except basal serum FSH. The cumulative pregnancy rate was of 41.2% at 1 year. Whether TAM actually improves male fertility, and is superior to CC in this indication, remains to be confirmed in controlled studies.

Brigante C, Motta G, Fusi F, Coletta MP, Busacca M.

Eighteen subfertile men, with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligozoospermia were treated with an antiestrogenic compound, tamoxifen (Nolvadex), at the dose of 20 mg/day for four months. Hormonal parameters (LH, FSH, Testosterone, Prolactin) were evaluated before treatment and after 45 and 90 days of therapy. Serum LH, FSH and Testosterone increased significantly after 45 days of tamoxifen treatment. Seminal analyses, performed before and after three months of therapy showed improvements in sperm motility and in sperm density. By our clinical findings, tamoxifen can be considered a useful approach for an empiric treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia.

**Mudge** · 01-06-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeeUK
also how much should i take?? is 1 x 20mg tab a day for the length of my course about right??

I dont take any during the cycle unless I need it, I do use arimidex however. 20mg ED or EOD sounds fine for nolvadex if you are trying to watch estrogen.

LeeUK · 01-07-2004, 03:16 AM

thanks for info.
So i could take during cycle, and for how long should i continue after cycle ends?

**Mudge** · 01-07-2004, 11:27 AM

As long as you need to of course.

Which nobody but a doctor can answer based on your blood test, and that means you will also have to stop nolvadex use for the blood test for at least 4 weeks, otherwise your numbers mean nothing.

Me personally, I just run it for a flat 6-8 weeks.

01-06-2004, 11:08 AM	#1
LeeUK Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 33	CLOMID or NOLVADEX i'm on my first real serious steroid course having experimented a couple of times before with weaker courses in previous years. This time i am making sure i dont get any dreaded bitch tits or other nasty side effects. Luckly i have never had any probs but wanna make sure!! the question (which i have read up on before on this forum) is should i take Clomid during my course and after or is it better to take Nolvadex, can i still get bitch tits even taking just Clomid which should help keep my testosterone levels up? Whats the general opinion out there??? thanks for the help

01-06-2004, 11:26 AM	#3
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,435 Photos: 1	You are going to be shut down period, clomid is not going to stave off HPTA suppression while on steroids. I would just stock up on nolvadex, for gyno "protection" and for post cycle, I no longer buy clomid. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

01-06-2004, 11:53 AM	#6
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,435 Photos: 1	IMO even better than clomid, but it is hard to decipher just because clomid makes me feel like crap. There are various studies pitting the two against each other, Dr.JMW on the boards recommends nolvadex over clomid as do more and more people nowdays. Antiestrogens as treatment of female and male infertilities. Buvat J, Buvat-Herbaut M, Marcolin G, Ardaens-Boulier K. Centre d'Etude de la Pathologie de l'Appareil Reproducteur et de la Psychosomatique (EPARP), Lille, France. Antiestrogens are widely used to treat eugonadal anovulation, luteal phase deficiency (LPD) and oligospermia. This paper reviews the rationales, endocrine effects, profertility effects and side effects of these treatments. Furthermore, we present our own experience of the use of antiestrogens in this field. We have compared the results of clomiphene citrate (CC) to those of tamoxifen (TAM) in a randomized study including 66 infertile women presenting eugonadal anovulation (n = 26) or LPD (n = 40). Both drugs obtained the same pregnancy rate of 80% at 9 months in the anovulatory patients. Conversely, CC was superior to TAM in the LPD cases (pregnancy rates at 6 months of respectively 40 and 11%). The abortion rates were of 11% on CC versus 36% on TAM. Both drugs significantly increased the luteal phase length and plasma progesterone level to the same extent. The results of endometrial biopsies suggest that the difference in their effects on female fertility could result from a detrimental effect of TAM on endometrium. The rates of the side effects proved to be almost identical on both drugs. Thus the use of TAM is not justified as a first-step treatment in ovulation disturbances. TAM should be reserved for patients who experience severe visual side effects on CC. We have also tested TAM in 100 subfertile males. In the 92 oligospermic males, TAM significantly increased the mean sperm count only in the normogonadotropic patients, but as much whether oligospermia was idiopathic or not. Sperm improvement was not significantly related to any hormone criterion except basal serum FSH. The cumulative pregnancy rate was of 41.2% at 1 year. Whether TAM actually improves male fertility, and is superior to CC in this indication, remains to be confirmed in controlled studies. Brigante C, Motta G, Fusi F, Coletta MP, Busacca M. Eighteen subfertile men, with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligozoospermia were treated with an antiestrogenic compound, tamoxifen (Nolvadex), at the dose of 20 mg/day for four months. Hormonal parameters (LH, FSH, Testosterone, Prolactin) were evaluated before treatment and after 45 and 90 days of therapy. Serum LH, FSH and Testosterone increased significantly after 45 days of tamoxifen treatment. Seminal analyses, performed before and after three months of therapy showed improvements in sperm motility and in sperm density. By our clinical findings, tamoxifen can be considered a useful approach for an empiric treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu Last edited by Mudge : 01-06-2004 at 12:04 PM.

01-07-2004, 11:27 AM	#9
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,435 Photos: 1	As long as you need to of course. Which nobody but a doctor can answer based on your blood test, and that means you will also have to stop nolvadex use for the blood test for at least 4 weeks, otherwise your numbers mean nothing. Me personally, I just run it for a flat 6-8 weeks. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

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01-06-2004, 11:21 AM	#2
Power Rabbit The Bunny Is Bulking! Elite Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,027 Photos: 3	Unless you are prone to sides or are jabbing 2g of test a week, I would say save your money on anti-e's during cycle. That aside, from what I hear nolva beats clomid in both side effects(it has less) and effectiveness. Id use nolva for post. Alot of people that run anti-e's on cycle are running the more expensive stuff....like arimidex('dex') or femara.

01-06-2004, 11:33 AM	#4
LeeUK Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 33	thanks, i will give Nolvadex a go i think so does nolvadex also help get your test levels up and help keep gains as Clomid is supposed to do??

01-07-2004, 03:16 AM	#8
LeeUK Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 33	thanks for info. So i could take during cycle, and for how long should i continue after cycle ends?