Thread: good big cat post on anti e's

by Big Cat

Do you really need estrogen control ?
Now that I'm hopefully making a comeback, might as well fill you guys in on some of the research topics I've been concerning myself with.

This is an issue I will also be raising, partly, in the first edition of my new column. Its a controversial issue and I do expect a lot of feedback both supporting and rejecting it. I hope it will open up some serious debate.

First of all it is my belief that excess estrogen (estrogen in levels higher than physiologically normal for a man) can be beneficial to gains. This is not a proven point, and is not up for discussion either, its merely an opinion. Estrogen has many beneficial effects on gains and health. All of these have been proving comparing physiologically normal levels of estrogen to low or non-existing levels of estrogen. There is relatively little direct data comparing excess estrogen to physiologically normal levels. Nor is there for androgens. As with androgens it is likely to assume some of these benefits will be enhanced with higher levels, whereas others may not. This is another issue on which much has been said and will be said and based on that you can weigh the risk vs the benefit.

Point: either way no one will argue that maintaining at least normal levels of estrogen is a necessity for health or proper gains. Eliminating estrogen is a definite no-no.

So what about excess estrogen ? Well, make up your mind. Do you believe it will help you or not. I am convinced to some extent it will, but if you are not ? Then what ? Hop on the anti-estrogen bandwagon ? Well let's examine a few points.

1.Estrogenic problems are not as frequent as you think they are. In fact, they are quite rare in cycles of 750 mg of test or less. If you are using no other estrogenic drugs, risk will be minimal, even with other estrogenic drugs risk is not that great. Many people will commence on anti-estrogens immediately, not even knowing what effect the drugs being taken would have had on them in the first place. For newbies its often of a bigger concern to discuss anti-e strategies than the things that really matter, like post-cycle therapy. Something you should really consider.

2.The reason that made me raise this point to begin with was when i noticed increased incidences of gyno after use of anti-e's. Some people after a cycle, and post-cycle, started to get gyno. I dismissed this initially as an imbalance of estrogen to androgen. Then I started noticing people got gyno in milder cycles, where they got none in heavier cycles they did prior to starting anti-e's. At this point androgen levels are considerably higher. So what gives ?

3.Well, the first thing that came to mind is that estrogen is not linear. Its not because you have a certain estrogen level at 500 mg of test per week, that using 750 mg per week will automatically give you 50% more estrogen. Estrogen seems to downregulate the aromatase enzyme (1). that means with every increase in dose of an aromatizing hormone, the concommitant estrogen increase will be smaller each time. Making it unlikely that such increases yield a much greater risk. Conclusion ? You probably don't need an anti-estrogen if gyno is what you are concerned about.

4.The second thing that came to mind is that estrogen seems to downregulate its receptor as well in most tissues. This means in very low levels of estrogen (like those that will occur with aromatase blockers) we will actually see an upregulation (2) of the estrogen receptor. When You then stop taking your AI, the estrogen level that was previously there is acting on a greater density of receptors and will be more prone to cause problems.

5.The points made above suggest that a lot of you who are overly stressed about gyno may be using expensive drugs that you do not need, only to result in the fact that after using them once, you may need them infinitely to avoid problems that you might otherwise not have had, resulting in more cost (and if you subscribe to my theory, less gains as well).

Now, a lot to consider. But we are ignoring two obvious things :

A.What if problems do arise ? Well, for starters wait it out and see if problems do arise. Learn the difference between an itchy nipple and onsetting gyno. If gyno does appear to be setting on, it is best to treat it with SERMS (Nolva and Clomid). Because they act as partial agonists and do not reduce circulating estrogen levels, they will not have as great an impact as AI regarding points 3 and 4. Thes edrugs are after all inevitable since they are essential for post-cycle therapy, and the problems described above do not seem to occur regurlarly with these products. So if estrogen control is needed, then preferably use SERMs over AI's.

B.What if you want to take this risk, what if you ARE willing to pay more for peace of mind, since you don't believe estrogen is helping and you happen to believe the excess estrogen is a risk you are not willing to take ? Then what is stopping you from using AI's ? Absolutely nothing at all. But do consider a few things : supressing estrogen too much, will result in less health and less gains. This means if you want to keep estrogen right where you want it, you will need to get weekly or bi-weekly blood tests to make sure estrogen is neither too high, nor too low. If this seems feasible to you (after all I don't recommend using any prescription drugs, not even steroids themselves without being under the care of a licensed medical professional) then I can do nothing but applaud you efforts. You may or may not be sacrificing gains, by keeping estrogen normal you may be avoiding longer term health problems. But that only works if you actually make the effort to do the tests and keep estrogen in the proper range.


(1) Nakamura J, Lu Q, Aberdeen G, Albrecht E, Brodie A.
The effect of estrogen on aromatase and vascular endothelial growth factor messenger ribonucleic acid in the normal nonhuman primate mammary gland.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Apr;84(4):1432-7.

(2) Agarwal VR, Sinton CM, Liang C, Fisher C, German DC, Simpson ER.
Upregulation of estrogen receptors in the forebrain of aromatase knockout (ArKO) mice.
Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2000 Apr 25;162(1-2):9-16


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In my opinion, a very good argument against useing aromatse inhibitors..

I know, I wont put down what he puts out and I'm not going to bash the guy for days on end or anything. I just dont look at what he says as religious truth.