PCT...yes another PCT thread

[ST240]

im coming near the end of my cycle and soon it will be time to start PCT.

Ive got quite a few options here. I have 30 tabs of 1mg arimidex and 30 50 mg tabs of clomid...

My original cycle is/was

375mg test per week
200mg deca per week
(for the last two weeks i will be shooting 500mg test)
for a total of 10 weeks

i was thinking something like

100 mg clomid per day - 1st week
50 mg clomid per day - 2nd week
25 mg clomid per day - 3rd and 4th week

Now my guy also highly recommended that i use HCG as well... Although ive had minimal shrinkage so i dont even know if its worth it. I was reading this interesting article on HCG that clomid is better than HCG for raising natural test. It also said using to much can do some other bad things (ie. over ..... ah f**k it ill dig up the article)

its a long read but its interesting

[ST240]

Clomid and HCG
By Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators
Nick can be contacted through the Muscletalk forum for any questions or comments.

Additional Information
- Learn how to use steroids safely and effectively and get maximum gains in the shortest possible time, with steroid expert Mick Hart. Click here for more info.




One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use Clomid and HCG correctly.

(A note to Americans - when I say 'oestrogen' I mean 'estrogen' - we spell it correctly in the UK!)

Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.

Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.

Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.

It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.

Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).

This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.

Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.

Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.


When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.

As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.

The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.

Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks


How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.

[Mudge]

HCG is not for raising test neccessarily, it is there to fill up your balls so that they can do their job of producing testosterone when you come off if.

In other words its there to fill the factory with workers and get it up to capacity. I love HCG and swear by it, but if you feel like passing based on cost then go for it, you may stick to that or you may regret it.

[JerseyDevil]

Mudge, if the decision is made to use HCG, isn't it better to use during the cycle, not at the end to try and play catch up? Also, with a 10 week cycle, is HCG even necessary?

[Dale Mabry]

I am starting my hCG in a week or two, but that's just cuz I ordered more.

[Mudge]

Jersey yes, the idea is its better to keep things working than to fix them when they are broken, its a common sense thing.

Of course if someone puts it off until the last minute or whatever, then that is there shindig.

Is HCG neccessary? No its never neccessary, but neither are steroids or tying your shoes. I just think it makes recovery significantly better, but each person has to figure out how important it is to them and how much their genetics are taking care of it for them already. HCG for me is cheap enough that I am fine using it, no second thoughts for me.

This was my very first cycle where I didn't lose any gains, HCG was responsible for much of that IMO.

[supertech]

Can you get hcg from your doctor or online pharmacy....

[Mudge]

You would be hard pressed to get it from a doctor, but yes you need a prescription to obtain it legally.

[supertech]

Chit...would like to run it during my first cycle,but my sources do not have it on there list

[Mudge]

I didn't run it for awhile either, didn't notice any shrinkage until down the road some good months. Some people get hit by PH use within a couple weeks, which I dont understand unless they start banging 20 times a day.

[JerseyDevil]

Originally posted by Mudge
This was my very first cycle where I didn't lose any gains, HCG was responsible for much of that IMO.

I've heard others say this also. I'm well into this cycle and don't have the HCG. I will definitely use it next time around though.

Dale, how much do use per week and how often do you shoot? Twice a week, 300-500iu's each time?

[Dale Mabry]

I will be doing 250 ius twice a week unless I start to get shrinkage, then I will up it to about 375 ius.

[Dale Mabry]

Just read some HCG stuff. I searched one of the drug databases I have here and it said there are two types of HCG, one for IM injection and the other for Sub-q. Apparently, Pregnyl is solely for IM injection while the other form, I am forgetting the name now, is for sub-q.

So, I have decided to go IM since that is what Pregnyl is meant for. I will be starting in a week or 2, just to be sure I can run it the length of the cycle.

[Mudge]

The bac water formula is slightly different but I always use my own anyway. I switched to subQ injections.

[Dale Mabry]

I foiund this too, apparently pregnyl is good for 60 days, not 30. I always thought it was 30, I may statr it wednesday now. All this info is re: Pregnyl that needs to be mixed in bac water.


Use Profasi within 30 days of mixing and use Pregnyl and Novarel within 60 days of mixing. Store mixed solutions of Pregnyl, Novarel, and Profasi in the refrigerator.

[Mudge]

One of them may come with sterile water and not bac water, I forget the details and I was foggy even when reading about it.

In the fridge that stuff is good for plenty long. I believe it should not be frozen however, I know I've seen the warning on GH or something(?) wish I could remember. Otherwise Supra puts out 50k iu HCG in vials, tempting because it costs about 1/4 of what I pay right now.

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by Mudge
One of them may come with sterile water and not bac water, I forget the details and I was foggy even when reading about it.

In the fridge that stuff is good for plenty long. I believe it should not be frozen however, I know I've seen the warning on GH or something(?) wish I could remember. Otherwise Supra puts out 50k iu HCG in vials, tempting because it costs about 1/4 of what I pay right now.

Actually, I got one of each, funny you should mention that. I got from 2 different sources one with bac water the other had NaCL instead of BA in it so I spose that is the sterile water. I will prolly just go with the 30mL of bac water I got separately and ditch the amps.

[Mudge]

Sodium Chloride

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...loride&spell=1

[Dale Mabry]

Yes, sodium chloride.

[ST240]

whats sub-q??

[Mudge]

Subcutaneous fat, below the skin.