considering first cycle with sustanon 250

lilros · 12-11-2004, 09:05 PM

Im 22 years old and Currently, I am looking to begin a first cycle but am still researching. Ive been workin out for about 5 years (atempting to gain for past 2 years) and have recently found myself on a plateau (for about 14 months now) with 5-8 lbs gain topps. I was interested in using a deca only cycle, but after reading many forum discussions, got the impression that its not a good idea without test , and am now beginning to reconsider. I am not looking for the most impressive and amazing gains, but enough to bring me out of the ditch, and make some progress, so I do not think stacking is necessary, nor do i want to consider it at this point. Is a sustanon 250 only cycle of 10 weeks (250mg week) a good choice? If not in your opinion, then please specify why and leave other suggestions. I am open to consideration. I am 5'7 and 160 so take that into consideration when making suggestions. Also, does my body weight have anything to do with how much i willl need? Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I have done much research on my own and will continue to do so...so no need to tell me i need to. Thank you in advance for your help fellas.

Witmaster · 12-11-2004, 09:21 PM

I'm no expert (in fact I'm a total rookie with Anabolic Steriods) but everyone I get feedback from says it's probably best to do your first cycle with some variation of Test.

lnvanry · 12-11-2004, 10:14 PM

I concur that test is the way to go for your first cyle. Probaly test Enanthate/prop. I no you aren't trying to stack anything, but using oral for the first two weeks can help kickstart your cyle. like dbol. You've have definitely come to the right place....I am sure the pros will respond here in a day or two. Look at their post numbers to see how much the respond. I am a newbie too, I learned quite a bit from this forum

LAM · 12-11-2004, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilros

Im 22 years old and Currently, I am looking to begin a first cycle but am still researching. Ive been workin out for about 5 years (atempting to gain for past 2 years) and have recently found myself on a plateau (for about 14 months now) with 5-8 lbs gain topps. I was interested in using a deca only cycle, but after reading many forum discussions, got the impression that its not a good idea without test , and am now beginning to reconsider. I am not looking for the most impressive and amazing gains, but enough to bring me out of the ditch, and make some progress, so I do not think stacking is necessary, nor do i want to consider it at this point. Is a sustanon 250 only cycle of 10 weeks (250mg week) a good choice? If not in your opinion, then please specify why and leave other suggestions. I am open to consideration. I am 5'7 and 160 so take that into consideration when making suggestions. Also, does my body weight have anything to do with how much i willl need? Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I have done much research on my own and will continue to do so...so no need to tell me i need to. Thank you in advance for your help fellas.

I would use either test enanthate or cypionate vs sust 250. use can use from 250-500 mg/wk for 10 weeks. a dosage of 250 mg a week is already 2x that of what a young man produces so it is more than enough to produce good gains.

BoneCrusher · 12-11-2004, 11:02 PM

As I lurk I learn Lam. I gather that I should then not run tren as a first cycle?

LAM · 12-12-2004, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoneCrusher

As I lurk I learn Lam. I gather that I should then not run tren as a first cycle?

I would never advise anyone to use tren for a first cycle. IMO everyone should start out with some form of test for the first cycle...

lilros · 12-12-2004, 02:36 AM

I have also been doing some research on the straight test beginners cycles. As far as I know, straight test (whether it is prop, cyp or any other type of straight test) can have the most side affects which can also be tough for a beginner to control (more so in the long acting esters). Also a more persistent and explicit PCT must be followed to outweitgh the intense chance of side affects. For that reason, I have considered using the sustanon 250 (which to my understanding, produces less side effects) to reach my goals of escaping the plateau. Any thouthts on this subject?

**Mudge** · 12-12-2004, 02:49 AM

Sustanon has long and short esters, so hoping to avoid side effects based on that seems flawed.

I have used sustanon, prop, cypionate and enanthate - any hints of side effects are the same.

What specifically are you worried about with side effects? You dont just "get them," there are warning signs, and if you have a brain you can avoid them.

lilros · 12-12-2004, 10:42 AM

Thanx for your thoughts. Particularly, im worried about bringing my natural test levels back to normal since keeping my gains is important. Also, I worry about the increased aggressiveness that is greatly associated with these highly androgenic forms of test. This dude i know, (actually he took sus and deca for his first cycle) told me that the aggressiveness was uncontrolable and it has changed him, even after he completed his cycle. I didnt know him before that so i cant say for myself. Can that be avoided if for instance I felt that uncontrolable aspect and discontinued use? Maybe im being too cautious, but i justo dont want to have any regrets. Ya know.

**Mudge** · 12-12-2004, 11:18 AM

This "dude" already had aggression issues then or he is off his rocker crazy and is looking for an excuse.

Thats just bullshit.

I dont know that there is such a thing as "too cautious," but there are such things as FACT and FICTION.

deeno · 12-12-2004, 02:24 PM

If you are worried about only those two things, then go ahead with a long ester test.

Aggression, as Mudge said, is solely based on if you were fairly agressive without gear. If you are known to be somewhat aggressive/edgy without gear, then yes on test you may feel extra aggressive.

Sustanon, ideally should be injected every other day to take advantage of the short esters. Prop is the same. Enan can be injected on a weekly basis, and this is what I would recommend. Keep blood levels consistent, this is important.

Any AAS will shut you down, regardless. Your test levels will be brought back to normal based on your PCT etc. Gains will be kept based on diet. Sustanon is not any less/more suppressive then Test Enan, Cyp, Prop. Good luck.

Tha Don · 12-12-2004, 04:31 PM

go with test enan or cyp, sust is not great for a 1st cycle unless your happy with injecting every other day, theres no point injecting sust once a week as your not going to be getting the benefit from the prop as it passes through your system in a couple of days

try a 10 week test enan/cyp cycle like LAM recommended, i'd also take dbol for the first 4 weeks to kickstart things

i'd be a LOT more worried about gyno and prostate than aggression! personally i feel the aggression is a benefit as long as you can channel it onto the weights its all good

BIGCOCKnBANGKOK · 12-12-2004, 04:54 PM

your definately more edgy on juice. like when your hungry and you know this is counterproductive. if you do have to fight you get a stronger adrenaline rush while on juice- almost like a blind rage that is definately not there without them. but if you just go around beating people up for looking at you crosseyed or stepping on the back of you r shoe you wont have to worry too long because theres no juice in jail. only orange juice but you can pretend its the real thing and sip very slowly.

lilros · 12-13-2004, 03:47 PM

Good lookin fellas! I guess the Enanthate would be my best bet. I would like to keep the dosages to a minimum, so maybe 250 mg. per week, taken on a weekly basis? Would you recommend anything else besides Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)?
PCT: Would HCG be necessary afterwards along with the Nolvadex, since the dosages are low? Any advice?

**Mudge** · 12-13-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGCOCKnBANGKOK

if you do have to fight you get a stronger adrenaline rush while on juice- almost like a blind rage that is definately not there without them. but if you just go around beating people up for looking at you crosseyed or stepping on the back of you r shoe you wont have to worry too long because theres no juice in jail.

Thats you bro, I'm as mild mannered as I ever am.

Tren is THE ONLY thing I have used so far that I felt affected me in any way at all, and its still controllable.

**Pirate!** · 12-13-2004, 09:36 PM

I don't see any problem using Sustanon for your first cycle. You could use Test E or Test Cyp instead, though. I went with Sus for my first cycle even though I have Test E and Test C lying around. 250 mg every four days for 12 weeks is the way to go. Get HCG, too. 25 mg/day D-bol for the first 3 weeks would be beneficial as well.

Purdue Power · 12-14-2004, 10:43 AM

Would 250iu HCG twice a week be enough or too much? And will Nolva alone be enough for pct?

Should I keep some Arimidex on hand just in case? I know that the chances of gyno with Sust aren't that high, but I always err on the side of caution.

lilros · 12-14-2004, 12:30 PM

Obviously, im no pro with this stuff but from what ive learned, you can use the nolvadex to combat the gyno during the cycle if needed. And no, I do not think nolvadex should be your only source of recovery. The nolvadex will simply block the estrogen receptors, and is not all that effective at bringing your endogenous test levels back up to par for PCT. You can still crash and loose what you have gained if your levels dont come back to normal --timely.
The HCG will mimic the LH, that your body produces, therfore assisting test production. Should be taken beginning 1 week before your last injetion and continued for a period of no longer than 4 weeks accompanied by nolvadex. May want to research dosages for this though, not so sure but think 250iu is way way too little.

LAM · 12-14-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilros

Obviously, im no pro with this stuff but from what ive learned, you can use the nolvadex to combat the gyno during the cycle if needed. And no, I do not think nolvadex should be your only source of recovery. The nolvadex will simply block the estrogen receptors, and is not all that effective at bringing your endogenous test levels back up to par for PCT.

lol ! Nolvadex does a lot more than that...

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

lilros · 12-14-2004, 01:05 PM

Perdue, I see you've read the article on Clomid and Nolvadex. That dude (mind & muscle) wrote an excellent article. Lam seems to know his shit as well, but F*^% + this -that, i dont know what the hell to think. Maybe im the dumb ass but regardless, i think if your in the same boat as me, and just looking for the best way to plan a post cycle treatment, wait until that Mind and Muscle dude posts his reasoning for (why anti-estrogens alone, arent sufficient for PCT.) That will surely clear up some questions.

ukeagle · 08-14-2008, 10:10 PM

I know this thread is VERY old, but the doubts and subject is still the same.

I too am on my first cycle and I am taking only Sustanon 250 (twice a week - Mon/Thu - 500mg a week).

I am at the end of my 4th week and still have not seen great results only that I went from 58Kg to 61Kg.

I have been eating a lot a balanced diet with proper carbs/protein (more than usual) and still, apart from some definition and ripped abs, I am not really bulking up.
Does this really happen to some people? Am I doing something wrong?