Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation

**ZECH** · 12-13-2004, 10:09 AM

Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
by William Llewellyn

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

References:
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

lilros · 12-13-2004, 06:52 PM

Very persuasive article! I have not yet had to use either one but plan to in the future. After reading that, surely I will choose Nolvadex over Clomid if one must be chosen over another. Always was under the impression (from hearing what people say) that Nolvadex is superior but based on my own, somewhat insufficient, research, I was under the impression that both were

Purdue Power · 12-14-2004, 10:55 AM

I am throroughly convinced now. I was always under the impression that you only used Clomid if you HAD to and Nolva wasn't enough for pct. Now I see that Nolva has many advantages of Clomid, and also without the chance of irreversable eyesight damage.

**ZECH** · 12-15-2004, 09:20 AM

Another good point is Nolva helps improve blood lipids and clomid tanks them.

Tha Don · 12-15-2004, 02:07 PM

nolva > clomid

lnvanry · 12-16-2004, 01:40 AM

So I was told by a local BB that you can use both. He recommended 100mg of clomid for 5days and 50mg for the next 7. Also starting day 1 of PCT to take 20mg of nolv for 4 weeks. I finish my first cyle in 2 weeks and want to hold on to the 20lbs I put on. I also do not plan cycle on anything again. What approach do you reccomend?

berealjohn · 01-16-2005, 11:12 AM

reasonably sound advice depending on u'r cyc?hcg is handy if u did 10 or weeks of T.start last week of cyc....after 14 days u might start nol & clom. ramping taper is best.

**Thermal2** · 11-19-2005, 07:51 PM

this is just the information I needed. I will be needing nolvadex very shortly, as my methyl-drol cycle is almost done. This is probably the most informative 5 minutes I have had in a while..!

jaim91 · 11-20-2005, 07:24 AM

Is clomid banned in all natural bodybuilding competitions?

souljah2211 · 11-20-2005, 10:35 PM

should nolvadex and clomid be taken on an emty stomach and at what time in the its best

UltimateFighter · 01-17-2006, 12:59 PM

they have stopped manufacturing clomid in many countries.

Oldy · 02-17-2006, 05:44 AM

Hello people, can anyone tell me where i can purchase Nolva dex from that will ship to me in the UK?

Many thanks

muratdaddy · 03-05-2006, 06:08 AM

hey ım a newbıe ı am takın sustone 250 ml a week ı know dat ı have 2 take clomıd or nolvadex but ı dont know when can u lighten me up on dem and wat they are for

EQUIPOISE · 03-22-2006, 10:56 AM

Mmm What About Arimidex Is The Best Isn' It?

TJTJ · 12-21-2011, 02:30 PM

bump

MDR · 12-21-2011, 03:32 PM

Why bump at five year old thread full of dated information?

TJTJ · 12-21-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJTJ

bump

because I saw no where anyone debunking this.

MDR · 12-21-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJTJ

because I saw no where anyone debunking this.

Look harder.

**Vibrant** · 12-21-2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDR

Look harder.

there was a good debate between mdr and twist not too long ago about this.

edit* heres a link for those too lazy to look it up: Nolvadex vs Clomid - Open Debate

lostsoul · 12-21-2011, 07:21 PM

this is a great read. REP

**D-Lats** · 12-21-2011, 07:25 PM

Great article.

MDR · 12-21-2011, 07:33 PM

This post by TGB1987 probably sums it up as well as any-

If this is such a no-brainer why are there so many guys who use and recommend Clomid for PCT here? It is a choice that we all are entitled to make. So what you are suggesting is instead of using Clomid I should buy (run) Aromasin, Nolva, and IGF-1 and when Clomid works well with Aromasin without the added hassle and cost of adding IGF1. Not everyone wants to use these peptides, some of which have had very little longterm studies completed on their use or any studies on Human use. Clomid is not as good as nolva for antiestrogenic purposes I'll give you that but that is why we are using Aromasin with it. You are referencing William Llewellyn who recommends Tamox for 45 days, Clomid for 30, with Hcg for PCT (no AI) . The fact is you are referencing very outdated information and went as far as making these two threads stickies(this is what is shocking to me). Clomid works just as well as nolva at restoring Test levels post cycle without IGF and GH suppression. Yeah it may take a higher dose but we are comparing differnt drugs. You speak of GnRH suppression which isn't that big of a deal with clomid since it still does just as good of a job as Nolva at restoring the HPTA just requires a higher dose. The possible upregulation of the LH receptors produced by Nolvadex is caused by the antiestrogenic effects produced in the pituitary by Nolva where clomid is not as much antiestrogenic in this area. I say possible upregulation because this is based off the fact that Nolva doesn't lower LH sensitivity where Clomid does slightly most likely due to the higher dose required for Clomid and the antiestrogenic effect nolva has on the pituitary. Add in an AI, Specifically Aromasin you also get an increase IGF1 Test, LH, FSH, and lowered E2 which will make either choice work just fine for PCT. Clomid is better for restoration of the sexual reproductive organs and sperm production which is why it is used as a fertility drug. Nolvadex is not used for this purpose as a first choice. My choice is Clomid and Aromasin which is not very shocking and is the more common current choice for PCT. All in all they both will restore the HPTA for PCT just at different doses. I would rather not have decreased IGF-1 and GH during PCT, I would like an increase in all anabolic hormones if possible but it is not so we have a choice to make. They both have the positives and some negatives but Clomid is my choice. My question to you is Why make this a Sticky, when it is controversial and outdated?

The bumped original post is seven years old, and Bill Llewellyn's article is even older than that. Some still use Nolva during PCT for their own reasons, but the vast majority of us use Clomid and Aromasin because it works better and more efficiently than anything else. Nolva is used primarily as a Gyno drug these days, and I think there are better options there as well, although I've never had any problems with Gyno. If you are still not convinced, take a look at Heavyiron's sticky First cycle and PCT. He addresses the issue as well. Everyone is free to do as they choose, but some of us have been doing this for a few decades, and are just trying to share what we have learned in the hope that it helps people make good, informed choices.

**Digitalash** · 12-22-2011, 09:10 AM

I've only pct'ed twice in my life, one with clomid and one with nolva. They seemed equally effective but I noticed absolutely no side effects using nolva whereas I feel I had some vision/emotional issues by the end of my run with clomid. Either way I was ready to fuck again after ten days or so and felt pretty good on either. I'd go with nolva if I had to , though I don't expect to ever have to pct again

Just my 2 cents

**fit4life** · 12-25-2011, 05:53 PM

great read thanks Zech!