?FIRST CYCLE HELP??mudge, pirate, D, etc..

bullet 29 · 02-24-2005, 01:40 AM

ok boys. bought 2 of your books have made much progress from a medical standpoint and have enjoyed learning the intelect aspect but im still having trouble using understanding and putting together a first stack cycle. the books dont help me relate to forum chat. i have read through about twenty threads on 40 or fifty differnet pages and im flooded. a jump start to keep me pumped would be great.
i did a first cycle of -test enan 250-- for 8 weeks 3cc's once a week. pretty primal considering the forum im in buuut.
did great loved the gains no sides lost a little but felt reletively comfortable. dont know if it was great to do but didnt have this site and my books to reference before i started.
i now have access to a few more items and would like to know what im missing or what do i still not understand. i want to put together a stack that a little more involved. but need guidance??

weeks
1-11 test enan 250 mg 2x week

1-4 dianabol 25 mg ed

7-11 winny or eq 50 mg ed

is this a suitable "first time stacking cycle"??

and more importantly the next part which is the hardest for me to figure out--every thing i read is different quantities at different times with different doses etc...

13-15 clomid or nolvadex??? dose???

1-11 armidex or liquidex dose ?????

would this cover everything. question marks represent contradictions in several threads so im not sure which ones and how much is best for this cycle and what are reasonable doses.
nolva for example ive read really only needs to be taken "if gyno" starts but in the sticky regarding pct it states a good pct will have nolva during weeks 3-8. so should i have it on hand and wait if gyno shows up or with this stack should i just work it in and run it?

so in basic i would love some of the feedback that has helped me in the past.

is the stack on top ok for a beginner (the right weeks and dosage amounts)?

And

Is my pct realistic or should I add or delete something??
Thanks again guys/ good or bad do what yall do best and let me know what ya think!!
bullet

bullet 29 · 02-24-2005, 02:14 AM

just caught this and it seemed basic,reasonable and manageable.

would a simple cycle be better than my above cycle????
week
1-11 test enan 500mg once a week
1-4 dbol 25mg ed

with something this simple what could i run a good pct with.
?????? looking at nolva or clomid?? which one and how much?
or waht else if needed?

thanks bullet

Tha Don · 02-24-2005, 09:57 AM

looks like a good plan to me

i'd go with this...

weeks 1-10 test enan 500mg/wk
weeks 1-4 dbol 25mg/ed

for PCT i'd go with...

weeks 13-18 nolva 40,40,20,20,20,20/ed
weeks 13-15 HCG 5000iu, 5000iu, 2500iu/wk

just keep nolva on hand incase of gyno on cycle, maybe some letro too, if you wanted to you could add in some winny towards the end of your cycle on weeks 9-12 but i think the dbol/test stack would be plenty enough, that is pretty much what i'm gonna run as my 1st AS cycle, same doseages n' all

LAM · 02-24-2005, 10:34 AM

I would run HCG during the entire cycle vs using it for PCT

gococksDJS · 02-24-2005, 12:25 PM

I prefer 2 250mg shots as opposed to 1 500mg shot a week.

Tha Don · 02-24-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

I would run HCG during the entire cycle vs using it for PCT

what use is HCG during the cycle? i've heard HCG during can be overkill, best saved for PCT

when and how much HCG would you recommend on this cycle LAM?

Mags · 02-24-2005, 02:46 PM

I thought if you ran HCG too long anyway it did the actual opposite of it's original intention of halting or minimising natural shut down/suppression and actually causing it alongside the exogeneous testosterones etc. Would running HCG for eight weeks (as many have posted saying they'd start HCG in the 2nd or 3rd weeks of the cycle) contribute or cause the above problem then? I thought it would be best either to run it staggered or just at the end as PCT. If an eight week stint isn't long enough to cause shut down, then I guess we wouldn't have aproblem running it throughout the cycle too. For some cycles, with all the different hormones going on with the tests, HCG producing natural test and the Dbol etc, won't that get abit much on the body?

LAM · 02-24-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

what use is HCG during the cycle? i've heard HCG during can be overkill, best saved for PCT

when and how much HCG would you recommend on this cycle LAM?

HCG during the cycle prevents testicular atrophy which makes for a more successfull PCT. personally I would rather prevent my nuts from shrinking then have to worry about getting them back to normal.

I run 500 iu's every 4-5 days during all cycles

Purdue Power · 02-24-2005, 08:20 PM

I am running HCG throughout my entire cycle too. As far as using an aromatase inhibitor like letro or arimidex, letro has been said to be too strong and even arimidex will hinder your gains. Keep Nolva on hand the entire time. I have been told that it isn't hurting gains if you take small doses everyday to ward off gyno. I am taking 15mg/day.

bullet 29 · 02-24-2005, 08:48 PM

phenominal guys much appreciated. ill take this and look to the books again for a bit.

still a little cofused whehther or not to run hcg all through or as pct etc.. but ill hit the books and see what i come up with.
thanks again.
bullet

Tha Don · 02-25-2005, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdue Power

I am running HCG throughout my entire cycle too. As far as using an aromatase inhibitor like letro or arimidex, letro has been said to be too strong and even arimidex will hinder your gains. Keep Nolva on hand the entire time. I have been told that it isn't hurting gains if you take small doses everyday to ward off gyno. I am taking 15mg/day.

so even a very low dose of letro 0.25mg eod will hinder gains? in what way?

why are you taking 15mg nolva ed? are you gyno prone or are you just taking it to be extra safe? will a dose of nolva say @ 10-20mg ed reduce bloat? nolva won't hinder gains then?

**Mudge** · 02-25-2005, 06:43 AM

HCG costs me $5 a week and for me its not overkill, and likewise better to have no problem than to have to try and fix it later. Atrophy can become permanent, so leaving the problem unsolved is not wise.

Mags · 02-25-2005, 09:19 AM

So running HCG during the cycle for approx. eight weeks won't start to shut down your nuts along with the AS? Would taking 500iu's aweek be affective at halting nut atrophy/natural suppressiion?
How long after finishing the cycle would you continue to take HCG?
Is running nolva continuous throughout the cycle any good to reduce bloat/estrogen sides etc?
Cheers

**Mudge** · 02-25-2005, 11:04 AM

HCG is to avoid atrophy, you are in HTPA suppression regardless of using HCG or not. You simply have the ability to mimick LH when your body is going to be putting out very little to zero on its own.

500iu a week? Maybe, maybe not. Some people do 250iu twice a week, I do 500iu twice a week because my amps are 5000iu and that stuff doesn't last forever in the fridge.

**Pirate!** · 02-25-2005, 07:18 PM

I wouldn't do any cycle without HCG during it. It is certainly possible to do too much, though. 250 iu every three days starting the second week works well for me. If they still shrink, go every other day until up to size.

Purdue Power · 02-25-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

so even a very low dose of letro 0.25mg eod will hinder gains? in what way?

why are you taking 15mg nolva ed? are you gyno prone or are you just taking it to be extra safe? will a dose of nolva say @ 10-20mg ed reduce bloat? nolva won't hinder gains then?

You need estrogen in your system to have a more anabolic environment. If you start taking estro out of the equation, you won't get as much out of everything. You just want to keep yourself below the gyno threshold. So the way I understand it(only from being told by trusted people here) since Nolva just blocks receptors and doesn't actually eliminate estrogen, it won't hinder your gains. 10-20mg ed will reduce bloat somewhat, but as soon as you stop dosing it, the bloat will all come back since the bloat is caused mostly by the estrogen and it will all still be in your system.

**Mudge** · 02-25-2005, 09:36 PM

I dont buy into that loss of gains stuff at all. I know a guy that pulls in massive amounts of water on 15mg of dbol ED, is that what you call gains, a chipmunk face? So in his case, he would be losing "gains" by using an AI?

I always use one during my cycles and am not about to stop now.

musclepump · 02-25-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

I dont buy into that loss of gains stuff at all. I know a guy that pulls in massive amounts of water on 15mg of dbol ED, is that what you call gains, a chipmunk face?

I love that guy.

**Mudge** · 02-26-2005, 12:22 AM

He is the kind of guy who wont run dbol because of that, and wont ever touch more than 250mg of test a week. His favorite cycles would pretty much be 300 deca once a week and 100mg of winny ED (since he discovered how much a ripoff gym prices were).

Lots of guys at my old gym were all low dosers, there wasn't enough cash for running cycles like lots of internet people do. This guy was 5'7" 205 after a cut, not shredded but in good shape.

Tha Don · 02-26-2005, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdue Power

You need estrogen in your system to have a more anabolic environment. If you start taking estro out of the equation, you won't get as much out of everything. You just want to keep yourself below the gyno threshold. So the way I understand it(only from being told by trusted people here) since Nolva just blocks receptors and doesn't actually eliminate estrogen, it won't hinder your gains. 10-20mg ed will reduce bloat somewhat, but as soon as you stop dosing it, the bloat will all come back since the bloat is caused mostly by the estrogen and it will all still be in your system.

thanks PP

Mudge, you use letro right? what dose do u run? the only think making me think twice about running dbol right now is the bloat on my face, if its bad with 1-ad and 4-ad its gonna be a LOT worse with dbol

will nolva at 10mg ed be as good as letro (say at 0.25 eod) at stopping bloat?

for the guys doing there 1st/2nd cycles and who did PH before is this the first time your running HCG or did you run it previously when you did PH? would HCG be necessary for a 6 week stack of dbol and s1+?

thanks

**Pirate!** · 02-26-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

for the guys doing there 1st/2nd cycles and who did PH before is this the first time your running HCG or did you run it previously when you did PH? would HCG be necessary for a 6 week stack of dbol and s1+?

thanks

I wouldn't do ANY cycle without HCG during it.

Tha Don · 02-27-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFromHell

I wouldn't do ANY cycle without HCG during it.

really??

did you run HCG on all your PH+PS cycles too then, or are you just refering to more lenthly AS cycles?

for a 6 week dbol+1test cycle could i just shoot hcg weeks 3 and 4 to prevent testicular atrophy, or would i carry it through to pct?

**Pirate!** · 02-27-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

really??

did you run HCG on all your PH+PS cycles too then, or are you just refering to more lenthly AS cycles?

for a 6 week dbol+1test cycle could i just shoot hcg weeks 3 and 4 to prevent testicular atrophy, or would i carry it through to pct?

I didn't run it with my 20 day M1T/4-ad cycle and regreted it. Yes, even short cycles that shut you down. Aim for 250 iu every three days starting the second week and ending a week before pct with that cycle.

cman · 02-28-2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gococksDJS

I prefer 2 250mg shots as opposed to 1 500mg shot a week.

agree. more stable levels

**Mudge** · 03-01-2005, 12:35 AM

I dont really bloat off dbol, I know a guy that goes chipmunk but it doesn't happen to me, for me its for gyno purposes on test and keeping free T a bit higher. I am using low dose test right now though, so its not completely neccessary.

.1/4 of 2.5mg ED.

Purdue Power · 03-01-2005, 10:41 AM

I never really got much bloat from the dbol. I held more water, but I just lost a little definition. It wasn't really that noticable to me, anyways.

02-24-2005, 01:40 AM	#1
bullet 29 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 100 Photos: 2	?FIRST CYCLE HELP??mudge, pirate, D, etc.. BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com ok boys. bought 2 of your books have made much progress from a medical standpoint and have enjoyed learning the intelect aspect but im still having trouble using understanding and putting together a first stack cycle. the books dont help me relate to forum chat. i have read through about twenty threads on 40 or fifty differnet pages and im flooded. a jump start to keep me pumped would be great. i did a first cycle of -test enan 250-- for 8 weeks 3cc's once a week. pretty primal considering the forum im in buuut. did great loved the gains no sides lost a little but felt reletively comfortable. dont know if it was great to do but didnt have this site and my books to reference before i started. i now have access to a few more items and would like to know what im missing or what do i still not understand. i want to put together a stack that a little more involved. but need guidance?? weeks 1-11 test enan 250 mg 2x week 1-4 dianabol 25 mg ed 7-11 winny or eq 50 mg ed is this a suitable "first time stacking cycle"?? and more importantly the next part which is the hardest for me to figure out--every thing i read is different quantities at different times with different doses etc... 13-15 clomid or nolvadex??? dose??? 1-11 armidex or liquidex dose ????? would this cover everything. question marks represent contradictions in several threads so im not sure which ones and how much is best for this cycle and what are reasonable doses. nolva for example ive read really only needs to be taken "if gyno" starts but in the sticky regarding pct it states a good pct will have nolva during weeks 3-8. so should i have it on hand and wait if gyno shows up or with this stack should i just work it in and run it? so in basic i would love some of the feedback that has helped me in the past. is the stack on top ok for a beginner (the right weeks and dosage amounts)? And Is my pct realistic or should I add or delete something?? Thanks again guys/ good or bad do what yall do best and let me know what ya think!! bullet Last edited by bullet 29 : 02-24-2005 at 02:02 AM.

02-24-2005, 10:34 AM	#4
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	I would run HCG during the entire cycle vs using it for PCT
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

02-24-2005, 12:25 PM	#5
gococksDJS RIP Foreman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,002	I prefer 2 250mg shots as opposed to 1 500mg shot a week.
gococksDJS RIP Foreman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,002

02-24-2005, 02:46 PM	#7
Mags We ate the toys eddie! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: East London, UK Posts: 882 Photos: 8	I thought if you ran HCG too long anyway it did the actual opposite of it's original intention of halting or minimising natural shut down/suppression and actually causing it alongside the exogeneous testosterones etc. Would running HCG for eight weeks (as many have posted saying they'd start HCG in the 2nd or 3rd weeks of the cycle) contribute or cause the above problem then? I thought it would be best either to run it staggered or just at the end as PCT. If an eight week stint isn't long enough to cause shut down, then I guess we wouldn't have aproblem running it throughout the cycle too. For some cycles, with all the different hormones going on with the tests, HCG producing natural test and the Dbol etc, won't that get abit much on the body?
	BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME. THE ONLY TIME SUCCESS COMES BEFORE WORK IS IN THE DICTIONARY. DO OR DO NOT - THERE IS NO TRY.

02-24-2005, 08:20 PM	#9
Purdue Power Good Enough Never Is Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Purdue University Posts: 1,351 Photos: 5	I am running HCG throughout my entire cycle too. As far as using an aromatase inhibitor like letro or arimidex, letro has been said to be too strong and even arimidex will hinder your gains. Keep Nolva on hand the entire time. I have been told that it isn't hurting gains if you take small doses everyday to ward off gyno. I am taking 15mg/day.
	5'8 1/2, 225lbs Your M1T Info Source Dream as though you'll live forever, Live each day like it's you last. Love like you've never been hurt. Tomorrow is never promised.

02-24-2005, 02:14 AM	#2
bullet 29 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 100 Photos: 2	just caught this and it seemed basic,reasonable and manageable. would a simple cycle be better than my above cycle???? week 1-11 test enan 500mg once a week 1-4 dbol 25mg ed with something this simple what could i run a good pct with. ?????? looking at nolva or clomid?? which one and how much? or waht else if needed? thanks bullet

02-24-2005, 09:57 AM	#3
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	looks like a good plan to me i'd go with this... weeks 1-10 test enan 500mg/wk weeks 1-4 dbol 25mg/ed for PCT i'd go with... weeks 13-18 nolva 40,40,20,20,20,20/ed weeks 13-15 HCG 5000iu, 5000iu, 2500iu/wk just keep nolva on hand incase of gyno on cycle, maybe some letro too, if you wanted to you could add in some winny towards the end of your cycle on weeks 9-12 but i think the dbol/test stack would be plenty enough, that is pretty much what i'm gonna run as my 1st AS cycle, same doseages n' all

02-24-2005, 08:48 PM	#10
bullet 29 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 100 Photos: 2	phenominal guys much appreciated. ill take this and look to the books again for a bit. still a little cofused whehther or not to run hcg all through or as pct etc.. but ill hit the books and see what i come up with. thanks again. bullet

02-25-2005, 06:43 AM	#12
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	HCG costs me $5 a week and for me its not overkill, and likewise better to have no problem than to have to try and fix it later. Atrophy can become permanent, so leaving the problem unsolved is not wise.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

02-25-2005, 09:19 AM	#13
Mags We ate the toys eddie! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: East London, UK Posts: 882 Photos: 8	So running HCG during the cycle for approx. eight weeks won't start to shut down your nuts along with the AS? Would taking 500iu's aweek be affective at halting nut atrophy/natural suppressiion? How long after finishing the cycle would you continue to take HCG? Is running nolva continuous throughout the cycle any good to reduce bloat/estrogen sides etc? Cheers
	BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME. THE ONLY TIME SUCCESS COMES BEFORE WORK IS IN THE DICTIONARY. DO OR DO NOT - THERE IS NO TRY.

02-25-2005, 11:04 AM	#14
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	HCG is to avoid atrophy, you are in HTPA suppression regardless of using HCG or not. You simply have the ability to mimick LH when your body is going to be putting out very little to zero on its own. 500iu a week? Maybe, maybe not. Some people do 250iu twice a week, I do 500iu twice a week because my amps are 5000iu and that stuff doesn't last forever in the fridge.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

02-25-2005, 09:36 PM	#17
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I dont buy into that loss of gains stuff at all. I know a guy that pulls in massive amounts of water on 15mg of dbol ED, is that what you call gains, a chipmunk face? So in his case, he would be losing "gains" by using an AI? I always use one during my cycles and am not about to stop now.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

02-26-2005, 12:22 AM	#19
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	He is the kind of guy who wont run dbol because of that, and wont ever touch more than 250mg of test a week. His favorite cycles would pretty much be 300 deca once a week and 100mg of winny ED (since he discovered how much a ripoff gym prices were). Lots of guys at my old gym were all low dosers, there wasn't enough cash for running cycles like lots of internet people do. This guy was 5'7" 205 after a cut, not shredded but in good shape.

03-01-2005, 12:35 AM	#25
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,966 Photos: 1	I dont really bloat off dbol, I know a guy that goes chipmunk but it doesn't happen to me, for me its for gyno purposes on test and keeping free T a bit higher. I am using low dose test right now though, so its not completely neccessary. .1/4 of 2.5mg ED.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

03-01-2005, 10:41 AM	#26
Purdue Power Good Enough Never Is Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Purdue University Posts: 1,351 Photos: 5	I never really got much bloat from the dbol. I held more water, but I just lost a little definition. It wasn't really that noticable to me, anyways.
	5'8 1/2, 225lbs Your M1T Info Source Dream as though you'll live forever, Live each day like it's you last. Love like you've never been hurt. Tomorrow is never promised.

03-01-2005, 06:04 PM	#27
bullet 29 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 100 </