Arimidex vs Letro

Tha Don · 09-27-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Now onto Femara (AKA Letrozole), which is more effective than Arimidex in it's ability to pass thru the cell membrane of lipid (fat) cells and inhibit the activity of aromatase -- Arimidex is just over 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase, Femara is around 95-97% Levels of estrogen are totally undetectable in any patients taking Letrozole, and it has even been used to increase testosterone to normal levels (from sub-normal ones) and increase LH, FSH and SHBG (Epilepsy Behav. 2004 Apr;5(2):260-3). Other than that, both of these drugs stop the process of aromatization, rather than just blocking (competing for, if you prefer) the receptors as Clomid and Nolvadex do. An effective dose of Letrozole is 1-2.5 mg/day (I use 1mg/day), but be forewarned, it can kill your sex drive, and could decrease IGF levels. On the other hand, I've seen studies where it increases IGF levels. Also worth noting is that there's a rebound effect when you come off Letrozol. What can I say? Letrozole's effects on serum lipids (cholesterol, both HDL and LDL) are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent. "And compared with Aromasin and Arimidex, In non-cellular systems, letrozole is 2-5 times more potent than anastrozole and exemestane in its inhibition of the aromatase enzyme and activity, and in cellular systems it is 10-20x more potent! Letrozole (2.5mg daily) also achieved a much greater suppression of the plasma concentrations of both estrone and estrone sulphate (estrogens) than anastrozole (1mg daily) and a greater inhibition of in vivo aromatization also (sorry for the geek-speak.it's over for now.). ( J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Oct;87(1):35-45.) Exemestane can also cause androgenic sides (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.)(1. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 2. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1997 Nov-Dec;63(4-6):261-7). I've used Letrozole, and it cleared up my minor gyno lumps, to the point that they are totally gone now.

Lets talk about Arimadex (Anastrozole), now. From the research I've done, this seems to be one of the best ancillaries around and I'll tell you why. First off, 'dex is an aromatase inhibitor (AI.remember what that is?). 1mg per day of this stuff (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males") was shown to decrease estrogen by 50% and increase testosterone levels by 58%. LH and FSH also went up slightly. The test increase didn't happen at a dose of .5 per day, but estrogen suppression was the same. Anastrozole also raises IGF1 and shows a trend towards increasing IGF2 (J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2002 Apr;80(4-5):411- BTW, literature provided by the original maker of Arimadex states that stable blood plasma concentrations of the compound are achieved after 7 consecutive 1mg daily doses. All of that plus the usual blood lipid changes we've seen with most of the anciliaries we've looked at! Anyway, that's a pretty hefty decrease in estrogen, even at .5mg/day.

For my money, if I wanna stop aromatization during a cycle, I'm gonna use Arimadex at .5mgs per day or Letrozole at 1mg/day. They are perfect during-cycle ancillaries. Unfortunately, you need to take Anastrozole for a week to get a steady level of it in your blood (same thing goes for Exemestane), wheras you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level. Though Anastrozole has a ½ life of 41-48 hours, and exemestane has a ½ life of 27 hours, Letrozole has a whopping 2-4 day (!) ½ life (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.).

now i was going to run letro on my next cycle at a low dose (.25-.5mg EOD), but now i'm swaying towards running dex at .5mg EOD, it seems that although dex is very slightly less effective on blocking estrogen, it still dose a pretty good job and it is more beneficial than letro for test and IGF1 levels, and i'm not trying to totally remove all estrogen from my system anyway which is a concern with running the letro (even at a low dose i've heard it is very strong), so maybe dex would be a better choice?

BCC · 09-27-2005, 08:33 PM

I would choose the arimidex. While you want to block estrogen, you don't want to drive it too low. It would also be a smart thing to run 10mgs of nolvadex ED.

**Pirate!** · 09-27-2005, 08:57 PM

Yep. Having used them both, I won't touch Letro again. With .25 mg/day of Adex you know exactly what to expect. I could never dose letro right without running into unwanted sides.

Tha Don · 09-28-2005, 05:04 AM

thanks guys

BCC: FYI i'll be running 25mg of proviron alongside the dex. i'll have nolva on hand just incase gyno symptoms do occur although hopefully with the prov AND the dex i won't have too much trouble (mind you it is test/dbol so i'll be staying vigulant)

Pirate: thats good to hear, you recommend .25 ED for me then? if the prov gives me any unwanted sides i can always drop that and bump the dex sightly, or vice versa to find a comfortable balance

BCC · 09-28-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

thanks guys

BCC: FYI i'll be running 25mg of proviron alongside the dex. i'll have nolva on hand just incase gyno symptoms do occur although hopefully with the prov AND the dex i won't have too much trouble (mind you it is test/dbol so i'll be staying vigulant)

Sounds good. I would still run the nolva all the way through for the benefit of your HDL.

**Pirate!** · 09-28-2005, 12:34 PM

For some reason, Dex only gave me unwanted sides, like dry/sore joints, when I ran it with proviron. I had to use less than .25 mg/day while on proviron. It is good to have a plan, but when it comes down to it you will have to go by feel to an extent. At least, I did.

Tha Don · 09-28-2005, 06:22 PM

BCC: nolva improves HDL? interesting, would prov and nolva work better then?

Pirate: that is also interesting, did you manage to find a comfortable dose with both? or did you end up dropping one or the other? if you were to run another test cycle and wanted to keep estrogen down what would you run, would you prefer dex/prov alone (or maybe aside a receptor blocker such as nolva) as to running small doses of both? as both dex and prov are AI's right? if you are getting sore joints from both i'd be inclined to think that running both is overkill

BCC · 09-28-2005, 09:28 PM

Correct, tamoxifen has a positive effect on the lipid profile. But I think it would still be a safe bet to include .25-.5mgs arimidex ED or EOD.

Tha Don · 09-29-2005, 06:11 AM

so .5mg Adex, 25mg Prov and 10mg Nolva ED?

that just seems like overkill to me, couldn't i just pick 1 or 2 of them? lol

Tha Don · 09-29-2005, 06:15 AM

i'm swaying towards just running dex at .5mg ED right now, bear in mind my last cycle i ran no anti-e and had pretty high BP, so maybe that would be a reason to leave out the prov as i hear it can increase BP, also tamox has its own risks dosen't it?

**Pirate!** · 09-29-2005, 06:28 AM

I continued using the proviron and I used nolva on cycle. My armidex dose fluctuated considerably. I only used Adex because I didn't want to be taking that much nolva. Hell yeah, nolva has it's own risks. Cancer and eye-sight damage are the main ones that come to mind. Supposedly, it lowers IGF-1 and is liver-toxic too an extent. You may have no problem running the proviron with the adex. I'd plan on that, and if you have problems, cut the adex dose in half. I ran 50 mg proviron/day. You can forget about proviron preventing gyno or having a dramatic effect on bloat.

Tha Don · 09-29-2005, 08:49 AM

i heard proviron was very effective as keeping bloat down, i remember this thread on muscle talk where a guy had ran proviron with dbol and he had only put on 5-6lbs instead of his usual 12 from it, and he was all ranting about how rubbish his gains were but it was the proviron that had kept the water off him

so you'd stick with the original prov/adex plan, and at what doses?

proviron should improve gains right, it frees up more active test, improves libdo, has a very mild androgenic effect, and also lowers E (thus keeps gains harder)... only real drawbacks from it are acne and hair loss as far as i'm aware, so i will keep an eye on those and can always drop it if acne becomes a real problem (i can't see hair loss being a prob, no one in my fam is bald)

if i just went with adex .5mg ED would suffice right? and i can take it from there (adjust to suit) once things get going

maybe i'll run the prov if i decide to run the deca, if i decide to leave the idea out i'll just stick with adex, that sound ok?

BCC · 09-29-2005, 09:31 AM

I didn't realize you were using the proviron for bloat. That's not a great idea, proviron is junk (for me).

The adex will for sure combat water retention (in turn helping keep your bp lower). Adex also has a slightly negative effect on the lipid profile which can be reversed through the use of nolva. I run nolva through all my cycles.

Tha Don · 09-29-2005, 09:34 AM

is there no safer/natural method of protecting HDL on cycle? i'd rather avoid running the nolva throughout (unless i develop gyno of course)

BCC · 09-29-2005, 10:01 AM

Oh, of course there are: Red Yeast Rice extract, flush free time released niacin, Vitamin E&C daily, flaxseed oil, olive oil and other monosaturated foods, and even a glass of red wine per day.

brogers · 09-29-2005, 10:43 AM

Steroidal AI's such as Aromasin supposedly do not negatively affects cholesterol profiles.

BCC · 09-29-2005, 01:00 PM

Supposedly being the key word. In most cases eliminating estrogen is damaging to the lipid profile.

Tha Don · 09-29-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCC

Oh, of course there are: Red Yeast Rice extract, flush free time released niacin, Vitamin E&C daily, flaxseed oil, olive oil and other monosaturated foods, and even a glass of red wine per day.

i always wondered what the RYR extract was for, what sort of dose of that is good?

could you run the niacin on cycle? or is it better left for pct? i had planned 1g a day throughout pct

already take a high strength vit C supp (haven't had a cold since!), what about fish oil is that just as good as flax for HDL? or should i run both? and how much of both do you recommend?

thanks

funkdocta · 10-25-2005, 08:38 AM

Thought i would bump up Young's post as I'm having a similar problem deciding what to run with my cycle.

What did you end up running and how effective was it young?

Im only gonna run 500mg Test E or Sust (still undecided) along with 200mg deca for 8-10 weeks. May even just drop the Deca tbh.

I am considering running some proviron to increase the free test and keep bloat down. Our family has no history of balding so Im hoping i wont see that side effect.

Should I maybe run arimidex and the proviron? Not sure how easy ill be able to get hold of the arimidex though.

Ive got Nolva on hand for PCT. Never really considered using it straight through cycle.

Post your thoughts!

gococksDJS · 10-25-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkdocta

Thought i would bump up Young's post as I'm having a similar problem deciding what to run with my cycle.

What did you end up running and how effective was it young?

Im only gonna run 500mg Test E or Sust (still undecided) along with 200mg deca for 8-10 weeks. May even just drop the Deca tbh.

I am considering running some proviron to increase the free test and keep bloat down. Our family has no history of balding so Im hoping i wont see that side effect.

Should I maybe run arimidex and the proviron? Not sure how easy ill be able to get hold of the arimidex though.

Ive got Nolva on hand for PCT. Never really considered using it straight through cycle.

Post your thoughts!

Whatever you do, be sure to have bloodwork done. About 7 weeks into a test/EQ cycle, I had complete bloodwork and an EKG done and told my doctor everything I was taking which was test e, EQ, adex and HCG. My HDL was incredibly low and he said nolva would be better than adex as far as cholesterol is concerned.

09-29-2005, 10:43 AM	#16
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,300	Steroidal AI's such as Aromasin supposedly do not negatively affects cholesterol profiles.
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,300

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09-27-2005, 08:33 PM	#2
BCC Newcomer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 184	I would choose the arimidex. While you want to block estrogen, you don't want to drive it too low. It would also be a smart thing to run 10mgs of nolvadex ED.

09-28-2005, 05:04 AM	#4
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	thanks guys BCC: FYI i'll be running 25mg of proviron alongside the dex. i'll have nolva on hand just incase gyno symptoms do occur although hopefully with the prov AND the dex i won't have too much trouble (mind you it is test/dbol so i'll be staying vigulant) Pirate: thats good to hear, you recommend .25 ED for me then? if the prov gives me any unwanted sides i can always drop that and bump the dex sightly, or vice versa to find a comfortable balance

09-28-2005, 06:22 PM	#7
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	BCC: nolva improves HDL? interesting, would prov and nolva work better then? Pirate: that is also interesting, did you manage to find a comfortable dose with both? or did you end up dropping one or the other? if you were to run another test cycle and wanted to keep estrogen down what would you run, would you prefer dex/prov alone (or maybe aside a receptor blocker such as nolva) as to running small doses of both? as both dex and prov are AI's right? if you are getting sore joints from both i'd be inclined to think that running both is overkill

09-28-2005, 09:28 PM	#8
BCC Newcomer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 184	Correct, tamoxifen has a positive effect on the lipid profile. But I think it would still be a safe bet to include .25-.5mgs arimidex ED or EOD.

09-29-2005, 06:11 AM	#9
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	so .5mg Adex, 25mg Prov and 10mg Nolva ED? that just seems like overkill to me, couldn't i just pick 1 or 2 of them? lol

09-29-2005, 06:15 AM	#10
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	i'm swaying towards just running dex at .5mg ED right now, bear in mind my last cycle i ran no anti-e and had pretty high BP, so maybe that would be a reason to leave out the prov as i hear it can increase BP, also tamox has its own risks dosen't it?

09-29-2005, 08:49 AM	#12
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	i heard proviron was very effective as keeping bloat down, i remember this thread on muscle talk where a guy had ran proviron with dbol and he had only put on 5-6lbs instead of his usual 12 from it, and he was all ranting about how rubbish his gains were but it was the proviron that had kept the water off him so you'd stick with the original prov/adex plan, and at what doses? proviron should improve gains right, it frees up more active test, improves libdo, has a very mild androgenic effect, and also lowers E (thus keeps gains harder)... only real drawbacks from it are acne and hair loss as far as i'm aware, so i will keep an eye on those and can always drop it if acne becomes a real problem (i can't see hair loss being a prob, no one in my fam is bald) if i just went with adex .5mg ED would suffice right? and i can take it from there (adjust to suit) once things get going maybe i'll run the prov if i decide to run the deca, if i decide to leave the idea out i'll just stick with adex, that sound ok?

09-29-2005, 09:31 AM	#13
BCC Newcomer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 184	I didn't realize you were using the proviron for bloat. That's not a great idea, proviron is junk (for me). The adex will for sure combat water retention (in turn helping keep your bp lower). Adex also has a slightly negative effect on the lipid profile which can be reversed through the use of nolva. I run nolva through all my cycles.

09-29-2005, 09:34 AM	#14
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	is there no safer/natural method of protecting HDL on cycle? i'd rather avoid running the nolva throughout (unless i develop gyno of course)

09-29-2005, 10:01 AM	#15
BCC Newcomer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 184	Oh, of course there are: Red Yeast Rice extract, flush free time released niacin, Vitamin E&C daily, flaxseed oil, olive oil and other monosaturated foods, and even a glass of red wine per day.

09-29-2005, 01:00 PM	#17
BCC Newcomer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 184	Supposedly being the key word. In most cases eliminating estrogen is damaging to the lipid profile.

10-25-2005, 08:38 AM	#19
funkdocta Kaobon Liverpool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 89 Photos: 2	Thought i would bump up Young's post as I'm having a similar problem deciding what to run with my cycle. What did you end up running and how effective was it young? Im only gonna run 500mg Test E or Sust (still undecided) along with 200mg deca for 8-10 weeks. May even just drop the Deca tbh. I am considering running some proviron to increase the free test and keep bloat down. Our family has no history of balding so Im hoping i wont see that side effect. Should I maybe run arimidex and the proviron? Not sure how easy ill be able to get hold of the arimidex though. Ive got Nolva on hand for PCT. Never really considered using it straight through cycle. Post your thoughts!