Ironworks

Hello,
I am new to the forum, but have been lifting on a regular basis for 7 years.
During that time, I have gone from 185lbs. to 260lbs., I am 6 foot 3. I'd be the first to admit I have put on some body fat, but I have really bulked up and increased my muscle density and strength. I have reached a point where I would like to run a couple of cycles and would like some advice. I would like to pack on a little more mass this winter and then cut up this spring. I tried Cyp many, many years ago, was not educated, and essentially wasted the cycle. I would appreciate advice on options/recommendations.

Thank you.

TJ Cline

8 or 10 weeks of Test Cyp or E
500mg a week.......break that up into 250mg shots 2x a week.
PCT 12-14 days after last Test shot.
PCT week 1. 60mg Nolvadex
week 2. 40mg Nolvadex
week 3. 40mg Nolvadex
week 4. 20 mg Nolvadex

Tough Old Man

ag-guys

yup agreed, good formula


AG
www.ag-guys.com

redman12

Good luck with your cycle

redspy

Do you know your bodyfat %? If it's on the high side I'd advise against steroid use until you lean out more. Fat cells are hot spots of aromatase activity and a higher BF increases potential of gyno and other unwanted side effects due to increased estrogen.

PWGriffin

I'm at 13% BF when I started this last cycle that I'm about halfway through now....13% isn't that high is it??

Stu

13% im surprised you havent gone into cardiac arrest yet!!!

redspy

At 13% you should be fine. Good luck with your cycle.

redman12

I was under the impression that 13% is ok,?

Ironworks

I am not sure what my BF% is, but I do have a slight case of gyno - ever since puberty - I think it is hereditary. Even when I was starting out at a very lean 195, I still had slight signs. Would you recommend an anti-estrogen during the cycle, or maybe a different cycle?

Appreciate everyone's help.

TJ Cline

10mg of nolvadex during the entire cycle..
Arimidex on hand if needed.

Tough Old Man

What he said as he's been right for sometime since he started listening to toughy....LOL..

gococksDJS

Im curious as to why you suggest it like this foreman? Adex prevents the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen, but does nothing for current estrogen levels in your body. If you were running 10mg of nolva, and had a gyno scare, adding the adex wouldn't suppress the gyno, just prevent further aromatization. IMO a good idea would be 0.5mg of adex EOD and nolva if needed.

PWGriffin

shut up, sometimes I feel kinda fat...I was super lean, prolly 7 or 8% before my first cycle...it was a dirty bulk...bloated real bad too.

Mudge

13% @ 260 is pretty damn good.

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

PWGriffin

heh yeah it is...I'm only 205 though...the person who started the thread is 260 but he doesn't know his BF%

I'm only 5'10 though...if I was 260 at any BF% I would be a freakin hoss

TJ Cline

Can you hear me now

gococksDJS

yes, I do understand that part, but you would also need to up the nolva dosage becaue of your current estrogen levels. The adex will prevent your estrogen levels from getting higher, but they are still high enough to cause gyno, not to mention the fact that adex interferes with nolva.

TJ Cline

Just a basic starting point....................I use 20mg Nolva on cycle, depending on the side effects. So far that has been enough....but I plan to run a 1000mg test cycle ( normally run 400mg a week) plus some other shit.......so then I will do both, if that doesn't work I would love to know what would???

Tough Old Man

Hello my friend. This article will help you understand why I personally prefer nolva or arimidex. I'll give up a little of the gains to prevent gyno.





Main >> Articles >> Supplements >> In Depth Clomid And Nolvadex Profiles! While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar.






By: Big Cat

Clomid and Nolvadex

NOTICE: This information is for entertainment purposes ONLY!

Full profiles on each individual steroid are here.



Pharmaceutical Name: Clomiphene (as citrate)
Molecular weight of base: 405.9663
Molecular weight of ester: 192.125 (citric acid, 6 carbons)



Effective dose: 100-150 mg/day orally
Average Street-price: $1 - $4, prices can vary heavily
Available Doses: 25 and 50 mg tabs


Pharmaceutical Name: Tamoxifen (as citrate)
Molecular weight of base: 371.5212
Molecular weight of ester: 192.125 (citric acid, 6 carbons)


Effective dose: 20-40 mg / day orally
Average Street-price: $30 for 300 mg (30 tabs of 10)
Available Doses: 10,20,30 and 40 mg tabs




Characteristics:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex. Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Tha Don

can you expand on that bro?

i was on 0.5mg adex eod and got gyno symptoms, i banged in nolva at 40mg for a couple of days, but it didn't seem to help at all, if anything my gyno got worse, left nip got a bit sore and itchy, so i've been using high doses of nolva all week (up to 80mg a day) and i've seen little change, now i've dropped the adex and gone 80mg on the nolva for 3 days running and i'm starting to see some improvement, so i'm not sure if the adex decreases the effectiveness of the nolva or what, but from what happened to me i would assume so

gococksDJS

Adex and letro are both type-II competitive aromatase inhibitors. When type-II inhibitors bind to a receptor site, they either prevent any activity from the aromatase enzyme or allow very little aromatase activity(but not enough to cause gyno), but then they will quit blocking the receptor site, allowing for aromatization again, but taking adex ED or EOD will prevent this if you aren't using any other competitive inhibitors. This means that the effectiveness of adex and letro depend on their blood plasma levels, and adding in nolvadex decreases the blood plasma levels of adex, so it's actually the nolvadex that decreases the effectiveness of the adex (I had it backwards in my original post). If you've ever heard of Le Chatelier's principle, this is an example of it. When a system at equilibrium is subject to stress, it will adjust to relieve the stress and restore the equilibrium. Picture you using adex as the equilibrium, so using adex at the same dose maintains the equilibrium, but adding nolvadex in decreases the concentration of adex in the equilibrium, thus making it less effective. I read all this in an article but can't remember where it is, anyone else know which one im talking about?

Pirate!

This may shed some light on the subject: http://ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=56191

My 1-Andro RX Journal