HCG experiences?

redflash · 11-25-2005, 10:56 AM

Just a few weeks from first HCG use. While everyone seems to agree you need around 500IU per day for 10 days or so and then half this for next ten days, there seem to be two schools of thought on how many shots:

1) Last thread I saw on this board, consensus semed to be advising 1000IU EOD or 500IU ED.
2) BigCat, whose advice most people seem to respect most of the time, clearly advises 4 shots altogether, first two at 3000IU, second two at 1500IU, every 5-6 days.

I understand the theory about having lower sides if you spread the dose - makes sense to me and that's the way I'm probably going to go. But I'd be really keen to hear from anyone who ACTUALLY TRIED both ways. Did you see any real difference?

Thanks in advance.

**Mudge** · 11-25-2005, 02:55 PM

BigCat is smart but he has never used steroids in his life and has been called out as incorrect plenty of times. He is arrogant and wont take feedback without being an asshole about it, that includes from HRT doctors.

I respect his intelligence, but I dont respect his inablity to accept anyone elses opinion or even posted fact that goes against his opinion. I wont ask him for advice on steroids when I feel that those who know better have been there and done that. Not some guy who pretends his training clients are lab rats.

Lots of scenarios will produce results even when it is not the best protocol, but I'd still rather find the optimal way. I prefer 500iu twice a week through my cycles as needed. The largest single administration I've ever done was 1000iu.

Fix it before its broken, dont wait until its broken and you have to shoot the shit every day.

Find a side you agree with and go for it. Obviously in circles where he travels a few people are going to latch onto his teet and suckle, telling you exactly what he tells them. Different people in different places will do things differently. Him and Fonz both are not people I prefer to hop onto the bandwagon of, but that is the side I chose to take and again everyone is different.

Tough Old Man · 11-25-2005, 03:12 PM

agree with Mr. Mudge here. I also use HCG and I do it like this. 500 iu's every 3-4 days and it works fine for me.

redflash · 11-25-2005, 04:16 PM

Mudge, TOM,

Can't thank you enough. There are a couple of stickies which point to Bigcat's stuff on Nolva so I thought he was generally highly regarded; I'll treat with caution.

I'm the guy who is running what Foremanrules caled a shit cycle (please let's not go there now as i'm over half way through); I trained and competed 20 years ago, did nothing for 15 years, and after getting back to my original form am on my first cycle in all that time. 300-400 EQ per week for 12 weeks(yes, TOM, I know it should have been Test but I have my reasons).

Would you guys do HCG now (week 8) or leave it until end of cycle? Just a 500IU shot or more than that?

At end of cycle, given that this is long ester stuff, when would you start HCG? And finally, would you taper or just run 500IU every few days for 3 weeks? I have my Nolva on hand and know what to do with that (thanks to Foremanrules as well as others) but it's the HCG which seems to divide opinion.

I'm not sure what give you guys the patience to keep coming back tot he board but there's a hell of a lot of people out there who appreciate it.

Thanks again,

Flash

**Mudge** · 11-25-2005, 04:30 PM

He is highly regarded, but I think his intelligence blinds him - and again he has zero personal use experience, so he says. Even when speaking with HRT doctors on the board he will say his way is better and will not even take their method into consideration, even when studies show his way to be incorrect.

I have nothing personally against him, like Fonz they are both very intelligent people. I would however not take thier statements or beliefs as gospel.

HCG is not a post cycle drug unless you are desperate. It should be used to avoid atropy in the first place.

redflash · 11-25-2005, 04:46 PM

Mudge,

Some atrophy but my understanding is that on this drug and at these dosages I'm not going to go into big-time closedown as if I was on 500mg/wk of test. Correct me if I'm wrong please!

And before anyone asks, I'm not going to post pictures of my balls pre-cycle and now....

So starting from where I am today (described above), would you suggest I do something now? And if so, what?

Thanks.

Tha Don · 11-25-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tough Old Man

agree with Mr. Mudge here. I also use HCG and I do it like this. 500 iu's every 3-4 days and it works fine for me.

i agree with Mr. Mudge also

Tha Don · 11-25-2005, 06:12 PM

i'm currently on test 250mg/wk and var 50mg/ed

however for the first 3 weeks of my cycle i ran dbol 30mg/ed, test 500mg/wk and EQ 400mg/wk... i'm now in week 5, and have been on the lower doses for the past 2 weeks

i'm not really shut down, my balls are still a good size, but to my knowledge HCG shot at low doses such as 500iu 2x a week will not cause any desensitisation, i also think i may generally suffer from low libdo, maybe i just didn't recover well from my previous PH cycles... but my testes are at there biggest they have been in quite a while, so it seems to be helping

next week is my last shot on monday, then 14 days afterwards i'll start pct, i'm planning 3 more 500iu shots over those final 2 weeks, so the last one is roughly 5 days before pct, that should ensure a swift recovery, i've heard people recovering better from heavy cycles and hcg use, than mild cycles with no hcg use! so i would always run hcg regardless of how heavy or mild the cycle is

**Mudge** · 11-25-2005, 07:36 PM

The thing is, when you are replacing a natural function of the body you are still suppressing yourself. So you are essentially adding time to your cycle.

If you must do it after your cycle because you didn't have it previously and you now need it, then certainly do it. I'm just saying its preferable to avoid the problem in the first place and use it during the cycle.

redflash · 11-26-2005, 05:20 AM

Thanks, guys.

Mudge, as I said in my first post I'm in week 8 of a 12-week cycle. If I understand you correctly, this would imply that I run HCG weeks 9-12 or 10-12, and finish the HCG at the same time as my last EQ shot. PCT (Nolva) to follow.

Is that what you'd suggest?

Thanks again in advance,

Flash

**Mudge** · 11-26-2005, 01:26 PM

I dont know how much you posses, but if you are already at week 8 and experiencing troubles I would start soon or right away.

You could run another week after cycle and really not count it, it will take longer for the gear to clear the system to begin PCT than the HCG will.

Look at how much you have and figure out a plan that way.

**Pirate!** · 11-26-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redflash

Thanks, guys.

Mudge, as I said in my first post I'm in week 8 of a 12-week cycle. If I understand you correctly, this would imply that I run HCG weeks 9-12 or 10-12, and finish the HCG at the same time as my last EQ shot. PCT (Nolva) to follow.

Is that what you'd suggest?

Thanks again in advance,

Flash

I'd begin the HCG immediately and run it until PCT, which should begin about 3 weeks after you last eq shot. What are using other than eq?

redflash · 11-27-2005, 04:27 AM

Mudge: I can tell my balls are smaller than usual but I'm not noticing any other effects. Anything I should be looking out for? I hear that EQ doesn't close you down big time like test, especially at what for most people is a girlie dose of 300-400mg/wk and with no other drug in combo.

Pirate: See post titled "Excellent, guys" for cycle. I've gained around a pound a week of LBM on a straight EQ cycle mainly at 300gm/wk for 7 weeks; I'm raising that to 400mg/wk for last five weeks (4 to go) just because it's there in the bottle, not because of any building/tapering theory! No orals. Slow, safe, solid.

I have plenty of HCG on hand but everything I read says you can de-sensitise your receptors if you over use it. Most folk seem to say 3-4 weeks; if I start now that would be 6 weeks.

Keep it comin guys, this is really helping me to sort out the confusion of recommendations out there.

Flash

**Pirate!** · 11-27-2005, 07:32 AM

It isn't how long you take HCG, but how large your doses are that cause desensitization. Read this:

Quote:

Swale's HCG advice

by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other

JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:

My New HCG Protocol Paper
This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

ag-guys · 11-27-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tough Old Man

agree with Mr. Mudge here. I also use HCG and I do it like this. 500 iu's every 3-4 days and it works fine for me.

same here

AG
www.ag-guys.com

luke69duke69 · 05-24-2006, 07:46 PM

I did it like that my last cycle and it worked great. Except for the fact that I didn't get slin pins and gouged myself in the stomach with 23g needles each time. Got slins this time. Much nicer

11-25-2005, 10:56 AM	#1
redflash Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 166	HCG experiences? Just a few weeks from first HCG use. While everyone seems to agree you need around 500IU per day for 10 days or so and then half this for next ten days, there seem to be two schools of thought on how many shots: 1) Last thread I saw on this board, consensus semed to be advising 1000IU EOD or 500IU ED. 2) BigCat, whose advice most people seem to respect most of the time, clearly advises 4 shots altogether, first two at 3000IU, second two at 1500IU, every 5-6 days. I understand the theory about having lower sides if you spread the dose - makes sense to me and that's the way I'm probably going to go. But I'd be really keen to hear from anyone who ACTUALLY TRIED both ways. Did you see any real difference? Thanks in advance.

11-25-2005, 02:55 PM	#2
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	BigCat is smart but he has never used steroids in his life and has been called out as incorrect plenty of times. He is arrogant and wont take feedback without being an asshole about it, that includes from HRT doctors. I respect his intelligence, but I dont respect his inablity to accept anyone elses opinion or even posted fact that goes against his opinion. I wont ask him for advice on steroids when I feel that those who know better have been there and done that. Not some guy who pretends his training clients are lab rats. Lots of scenarios will produce results even when it is not the best protocol, but I'd still rather find the optimal way. I prefer 500iu twice a week through my cycles as needed. The largest single administration I've ever done was 1000iu. Fix it before its broken, dont wait until its broken and you have to shoot the shit every day. Find a side you agree with and go for it. Obviously in circles where he travels a few people are going to latch onto his teet and suckle, telling you exactly what he tells them. Different people in different places will do things differently. Him and Fonz both are not people I prefer to hop onto the bandwagon of, but that is the side I chose to take and again everyone is different.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

11-25-2005, 04:16 PM	#4
redflash Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 166	Excellent, guys... Mudge, TOM, Can't thank you enough. There are a couple of stickies which point to Bigcat's stuff on Nolva so I thought he was generally highly regarded; I'll treat with caution. I'm the guy who is running what Foremanrules caled a shit cycle (please let's not go there now as i'm over half way through); I trained and competed 20 years ago, did nothing for 15 years, and after getting back to my original form am on my first cycle in all that time. 300-400 EQ per week for 12 weeks(yes, TOM, I know it should have been Test but I have my reasons). Would you guys do HCG now (week 8) or leave it until end of cycle? Just a 500IU shot or more than that? At end of cycle, given that this is long ester stuff, when would you start HCG? And finally, would you taper or just run 500IU every few days for 3 weeks? I have my Nolva on hand and know what to do with that (thanks to Foremanrules as well as others) but it's the HCG which seems to divide opinion. I'm not sure what give you guys the patience to keep coming back tot he board but there's a hell of a lot of people out there who appreciate it. Thanks again, Flash

11-25-2005, 04:30 PM	#5
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	He is highly regarded, but I think his intelligence blinds him - and again he has zero personal use experience, so he says. Even when speaking with HRT doctors on the board he will say his way is better and will not even take their method into consideration, even when studies show his way to be incorrect. I have nothing personally against him, like Fonz they are both very intelligent people. I would however not take thier statements or beliefs as gospel. HCG is not a post cycle drug unless you are desperate. It should be used to avoid atropy in the first place.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

11-25-2005, 04:46 PM	#6
redflash Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 166	So if you were where I am now...? Mudge, Some atrophy but my understanding is that on this drug and at these dosages I'm not going to go into big-time closedown as if I was on 500mg/wk of test. Correct me if I'm wrong please! And before anyone asks, I'm not going to post pictures of my balls pre-cycle and now.... So starting from where I am today (described above), would you suggest I do something now? And if so, what? Thanks.

11-25-2005, 03:12 PM	#3
Tough Old Man Canine club CEO Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: baja calif, Mexico Posts: 6,933 Photos: 1	agree with Mr. Mudge here. I also use HCG and I do it like this. 500 iu's every 3-4 days and it works fine for me.

11-25-2005, 06:12 PM	#8
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	i'm currently on test 250mg/wk and var 50mg/ed however for the first 3 weeks of my cycle i ran dbol 30mg/ed, test 500mg/wk and EQ 400mg/wk... i'm now in week 5, and have been on the lower doses for the past 2 weeks i'm not really shut down, my balls are still a good size, but to my knowledge HCG shot at low doses such as 500iu 2x a week will not cause any desensitisation, i also think i may generally suffer from low libdo, maybe i just didn't recover well from my previous PH cycles... but my testes are at there biggest they have been in quite a while, so it seems to be helping next week is my last shot on monday, then 14 days afterwards i'll start pct, i'm planning 3 more 500iu shots over those final 2 weeks, so the last one is roughly 5 days before pct, that should ensure a swift recovery, i've heard people recovering better from heavy cycles and hcg use, than mild cycles with no hcg use! so i would always run hcg regardless of how heavy or mild the cycle is

11-25-2005, 07:36 PM	#9
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	The thing is, when you are replacing a natural function of the body you are still suppressing yourself. So you are essentially adding time to your cycle. If you must do it after your cycle because you didn't have it previously and you now need it, then certainly do it. I'm just saying its preferable to avoid the problem in the first place and use it during the cycle.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

11-26-2005, 05:20 AM	#10
redflash Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 166	Four weeks of cycle left - start HCG now? Thanks, guys. Mudge, as I said in my first post I'm in week 8 of a 12-week cycle. If I understand you correctly, this would imply that I run HCG weeks 9-12 or 10-12, and finish the HCG at the same time as my last EQ shot. PCT (Nolva) to follow. Is that what you'd suggest? Thanks again in advance, Flash

11-26-2005, 01:26 PM	#11
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,149 Photos: 1	I dont know how much you posses, but if you are already at week 8 and experiencing troubles I would start soon or right away. You could run another week after cycle and really not count it, it will take longer for the gear to clear the system to begin PCT than the HCG will. Look at how much you have and figure out a plan that way.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

11-27-2005, 04:27 AM	#13
redflash Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 166	Mudge: I can tell my balls are smaller than usual but I'm not noticing any other effects. Anything I should be looking out for? I hear that EQ doesn't close you down big time like test, especially at what for most people is a girlie dose of 300-400mg/wk and with no other drug in combo. Pirate: See post titled "Excellent, guys" for cycle. I've gained around a pound a week of LBM on a straight EQ cycle mainly at 300gm/wk for 7 weeks; I'm raising that to 400mg/wk for last five weeks (4 to go) just because it's there in the bottle, not because of any building/tapering theory! No orals. Slow, safe, solid. I have plenty of HCG on hand but everything I read says you can de-sensitise your receptors if you over use it. Most folk seem to say 3-4 weeks; if I start now that would be 6 weeks. Keep it comin guys, this is really helping me to sort out the confusion of recommendations out there. Flash

05-24-2006, 07:46 PM	#16
luke69duke69 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 478	I did it like that my last cycle and it worked great. Except for the fact that I didn't get slin pins and gouged myself in the stomach with 23g needles each time. Got slins this time. Much nicer
	"I may not be the best looking guy in the bar, but I'm the only one talking to you" - J King

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