Mass Or Strength

No....Name!!!! · 08-14-2006, 07:33 PM

HI, i am geting alot of guys telling me that Sust 250 is for strength not mass.

But i have also heared its for mass.

I am looking for mass, it will be my first cycle, i have my option between Test-E And Sust 250.

But i dont know which one builds more mass, i will also be stacking this with D-BOL.

So which one between the 2 are for mass gains.

Test-E or Sust 250

Thanks.

Malley · 08-14-2006, 07:37 PM

What are you running it at.
I would go with testE/Sus 500mg/week for 12 weeks
Dbol-25mg/day for 4 weeks

I think you will hear most people here will tell you that test E is the way to go. Personally I like Sus. Cant really go wrong with either.

No....Name!!!! · 08-14-2006, 09:59 PM

Ok man, and no i will not do both if that is what you where saying.

I will do test-e or sus at 500mg a week for 12 weeks, d-bol at 30mg a day for 4 weeks to jump start the cycle.

I want to add mass, so need to know which one is better at that.?

Thank you.

**Mudge** · 08-14-2006, 10:23 PM

Testosterone is the measure from which all other drugs obtain their anabolic/androgenic ratios, testosterone is good for BOTH.

No....Name!!!! · 08-15-2006, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Testosterone is the measure from which all other drugs obtain their anabolic/androgenic ratios, testosterone is good for BOTH.

So either would be good, or are you saying Test-E.?

TJ Cline · 08-15-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No....Name!!!!

So either would be good, or are you saying Test-E.?

Any form of test will build mass and power

Tough Old Man · 08-15-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No....Name!!!!

So either would be good, or are you saying Test-E.?

If you do more studies, you'll fine that Test E is much better. What are your stats so we can tell you the correct dosage.

Age
Height
Weight
Length of training
Bodyfat %

**Mudge** · 08-15-2006, 11:33 AM

Sustanon is testosterone dude. I put on 20 pounds with my first cycle, which was sustanon. If your friends can't gain mass with testosterone they dont know what they are doing.

No....Name!!!! · 08-15-2006, 05:47 PM

I never said my freinds didnt gain anything, just wanted to know.

And i have my dose right it's ok, 500mg a week, shot taken on monday and then thur.

And em runing D-bol at 30-40mg a day.

I have Nolva and HCG for PCT.

BigPapaPump68 · 08-15-2006, 06:19 PM

Sounds fine.

No....Name!!!! · 08-15-2006, 07:43 PM

Ok, thanks BigPapaPump68.

Also how long should i run the HCG, is 1 week good or not.?

HCG will be taken 500iu Every 3rd day, i guess that is what he told me to do.

Thanks

**Mudge** · 08-15-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No....Name!!!!

I never said my freinds didnt gain anything, just wanted to know.

I know you didn't say that, but it was implied by them stating its not good for mass. If you gain 20-30 pounds in 10 weeks, and say its not a great mass gain, I have to be curious what their stats are.

Unless of course they haven't used anything, in which case I dont know where they would have read such a thing.

How much HCG do you have? Amps are commonly 1500/2000/2500/5000iu. 500iu twice a week is fine for most people, some go down to 250 twice a week and are fine.

No....Name!!!! · 08-15-2006, 10:38 PM

O sorry man, no this guy i know said that sus is not good for mass, but maybe he is just pullin my chain.

I think it is 1500iu.

.................................................. ..................................................

The guy who said that is 6' 247.

He just said sus doesnt work for him. i guess

**Mudge** · 08-16-2006, 09:12 AM

1500iu isn't enough to do much, but you may as well run it at the very end of your cycle.

No....Name!!!! · 08-16-2006, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

1500iu isn't enough to do much, but you may as well run it at the very end of your cycle.

Please someone tell me what dosage?, and how long for PCT should i take HCG.????

Thats why i am here to get help from people who have more experience.

The cycle is planed for the 1st of this new year, so i have plenty of time to figure things out and get ready.

Thanks guys.

**Mudge** · 08-17-2006, 12:55 AM

Normally its run towards the tail end of the cycle, not post cycle as it is suppressive. If you replace what the body does on its own, that is cycling, hence - hCG is not a post cycle drug.

500iu twice a week is fine, which leaves you 1.5 weeks.

No....Name!!!! · 08-17-2006, 03:17 AM

yes sorry just talked to my supplier, i will have 3 amps of 1500 iu

And it will be at the tail end of the cycle and than Nolva at 20mg a day for 30 days.

So, Good To "GO" Or Not.????

Trouble · 08-17-2006, 08:58 PM

How old are you again? How long have you been working out for? What are your present stats, height and weight?

TOm astutely asked these questions. I didn't see you answer them for us; I don't think you'll get the answers you want until we see stats first.

To restate it politely:

Age
Height
Weight
Length of training
Bodyfat %

Have you ever purchased and read a anabolic steroids book? This is not a decision you make lightly.

No....Name!!!! · 08-18-2006, 02:13 AM

Age-21 turning 22 in september
Height-5'11
Weight-175
Length of training-2 years
Bodyfat-9%
Steroid research-1 year
Supplements-Creatine, hated it. and i also take whey.

Yes i have read books, i don't own them, library. lol

What you say will not take me away from steroids, i dont believe in waiting to genetic limit, most of all pro bodybuilder do not wait.

I want to compete.

I started extremely SMALL.

I was 110 pounds, bulked to 180 and cut to 165. bulking again.

Malley · 08-18-2006, 02:40 AM

Wow its been so long since I delt with PCT I cant even remember what I ran (dosages). But as far as Dbol I wouldnt think you need more than 25/mg day. Especially since its your first cycle.

Malley · 08-18-2006, 02:42 AM

Yeah I know you say what we can say wont change. I agreed whenever I was 19. I did my first cycle then. I think I shorted myself now, but I know how pigheaded people can be and I was the same way. I wont try to get you to rethink it, just give you the best and safest advice I can.

No....Name!!!! · 08-18-2006, 04:13 AM

Thanks man, but i am actually thinking about waiting, even tho they hit you with WAIT TELL YOUR 21.

And then after you reach the age of 21 they hit you with GENETIC LIMIT.

Kinda bull.

But i dunno.

Trouble · 08-18-2006, 12:06 PM

Go read my response in the new thread posted by TOM (Trouble or Mudge) this morning.

Read it, and then come back to this thread and ask me questions if what I am saying is not clear to you.

You are 22 (or younger), and from a quick review of your stats, you are far from being at the very important point of physical optimum for use of gear.

Using it now would have many negative consequences...and you would be unable to sustain the gains made. After a few cycles, you would have reaped very little net gains, and a lot of costs.

A quick review of your posts here also indicates that you need to read and learn a lot more before you are ready for responsible use of gear.

There is no bullshit here. There is plenty of harsh reality.

There is no free ride in life. There are no real shortcuts. There are tradeoffs.

Gear use has it tradeoffs. The earlier you start its use, the less likely you are to have permament benefit, but the higher your net negative costs, especially in young men of your present age.

BTW, I can tell you why creatine didn't work for you, and also why you need to understand the significance of it not working. Its a good a signpost as any that your body if far from being able to use AAS as its intended.

**Mudge** · 08-18-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No....Name!!!!

Kinda bull.

The bull is looking at all the guys who are on in the gyms who haven't gotten very far, because they hadn't proven beforehand they had the know how and the dicipline to get very far.

No....Name!!!! · 08-18-2006, 04:59 PM

So your saing i havent gotten very far,

And also for Trouble, creatine didnt work for my father either.

It just gives me head achs, so i quit taking it.

No....Name!!!! · 08-18-2006, 05:12 PM

So Trouble, how long should i wait.??

I get what your trying to say, but was Arnold better of not to take steroids at 15.??

I mean he would tell you no, because if he would have waited he would never acheived what he has today.

I would just like to know how long, just to my genetic limit.?

But i also don't get why all Pro BodyBuilder's do not wait for this genetic limit.

Thanks,????

Trouble · 08-18-2006, 06:52 PM

>So Trouble, how long should i wait?

At least five more years (minimum 26-27, 7 years or hardcore training, and glucose tolerance fine-tuning. It is an *option* not a given, that you will need it. It depends on your goals, your genetics, and your discipline.

>I get what your trying to say, but was Arnold better off not to take steroids at 15.??

That's affirmative; he was better off not to take them at so young an age.

You are not Arnold S; its illogical to compare yourself to him.

>I mean he would tell you no, because if he would have waited he would never acheived what he has today.

Wanna bet on that? I bet if we write to him, he would say, "No, I would not have used to early; I would have waited."

>I would just like to know how long, just to my genetic limit.?

Depends on how hard you train and how dedicated you are to reaching that goal. Its not a matter of "when", its a matter of "if".

>But i also don't get why all Pro BodyBuilder's do not wait for this genetic
limit.

Again, your rationalization is that if the pro bbers do it, its OK?

Faulty logic. You may never make it the hard-earned ranks of the professional bodybuilder. You may, however, make it to the ranks of the seasoned and wise strength-training enthusiast, who dedicates himself to personal accomplishment.

Meeting that goal of personal accomplishment does not require the use of AAS. It requires grit, drive, and determination, self control and perseverence.

On failure to respond to creatine loading: You cannot bioaccumulate and use creatine as an energy source for type II fiber action if you do not have good glucose tolerance. You cannot modulate water and ion balance within cells, a direct pre-requisite to create and glycogen efficiency, without insulin sensivitvity to permit glucose entry into cells for storage, and taurine and N-acetyl cysteine to counteract ion accumulation by oxdiative phosphorylation.

Therefore, sir, your lack of creatine response is a direct indicator of your lack of ability to utilize glucose and other energy sources in muscle fibers associated with optimal strength status in large compound muscle performance.

You are not ready. When you can use CEE, and begin to see and feel the benefits of its effects, when you store and use glycogen efficiently, determined directly from liver lipid status and also short chain fatty acids balance in distal gut (these are exceptionally advanced notions that the other bodybuilding sites - save one or two- neglect to discuss) - then you will be ready to receive maximal benefit against the costs incurred in AAS use. This glycogen storage facet only occurs when gut health is maximized. That status assures optimal immune system function. In turn, optimal immune system function guarantees adequate repair and recovery from intense training.

Until then, you are spitting in the wind.

No....Name!!!! · 08-18-2006, 07:13 PM

I know i am not comparing to Arnold, also Arnold has already stated that he does not regret anything from using steroids.

Also how would he have achieved what he had today, he would have been into his 20's to reach genetic limit, than now one would have noticed him.

He has gotten where he was today because of steroids.

But i do agree with the other terms you have stated.

Tough Old Man · 08-18-2006, 07:19 PM

08-14-2006, 07:33 PM	#1
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Mass Or Strength HI, i am geting alot of guys telling me that Sust 250 is for strength not mass. But i have also heared its for mass. I am looking for mass, it will be my first cycle, i have my option between Test-E And Sust 250. But i dont know which one builds more mass, i will also be stacking this with D-BOL. So which one between the 2 are for mass gains. Test-E or Sust 250 Thanks.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-14-2006, 07:37 PM	#2
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	What are you running it at. I would go with testE/Sus 500mg/week for 12 weeks Dbol-25mg/day for 4 weeks I think you will hear most people here will tell you that test E is the way to go. Personally I like Sus. Cant really go wrong with either.
	www.crossfit.com

08-14-2006, 09:59 PM	#3
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Ok man, and no i will not do both if that is what you where saying. I will do test-e or sus at 500mg a week for 12 weeks, d-bol at 30mg a day for 4 weeks to jump start the cycle. I want to add mass, so need to know which one is better at that.? Thank you.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-14-2006, 10:23 PM	#4
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	Testosterone is the measure from which all other drugs obtain their anabolic/androgenic ratios, testosterone is good for BOTH.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-15-2006, 11:33 AM	#8
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	Sustanon is testosterone dude. I put on 20 pounds with my first cycle, which was sustanon. If your friends can't gain mass with testosterone they dont know what they are doing.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-15-2006, 05:47 PM	#9
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	I never said my freinds didnt gain anything, just wanted to know. And i have my dose right it's ok, 500mg a week, shot taken on monday and then thur. And em runing D-bol at 30-40mg a day. I have Nolva and HCG for PCT.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-15-2006, 06:19 PM	#10
BigPapaPump68 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,310	Sounds fine.

08-15-2006, 07:43 PM	#11
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Ok, thanks BigPapaPump68. Also how long should i run the HCG, is 1 week good or not.? HCG will be taken 500iu Every 3rd day, i guess that is what he told me to do. Thanks
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-15-2006, 10:38 PM	#13
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	O sorry man, no this guy i know said that sus is not good for mass, but maybe he is just pullin my chain. I think it is 1500iu. .................................................. .................................................. The guy who said that is 6' 247. He just said sus doesnt work for him. i guess
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-16-2006, 09:12 AM	#14
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	1500iu isn't enough to do much, but you may as well run it at the very end of your cycle.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-17-2006, 12:55 AM	#16
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,075 Photos: 1	Normally its run towards the tail end of the cycle, not post cycle as it is suppressive. If you replace what the body does on its own, that is cycling, hence - hCG is not a post cycle drug. 500iu twice a week is fine, which leaves you 1.5 weeks.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-17-2006, 03:17 AM	#17
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	yes sorry just talked to my supplier, i will have 3 amps of 1500 iu And it will be at the tail end of the cycle and than Nolva at 20mg a day for 30 days. So, Good To "GO" Or Not.????
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-17-2006, 08:58 PM	#18
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	How old are you again? How long have you been working out for? What are your present stats, height and weight? TOm astutely asked these questions. I didn't see you answer them for us; I don't think you'll get the answers you want until we see stats first. To restate it politely: Age Height Weight Length of training Bodyfat % Have you ever purchased and read a anabolic steroids book? This is not a decision you make lightly.

08-18-2006, 02:13 AM	#19
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Age-21 turning 22 in september Height-5'11 Weight-175 Length of training-2 years Bodyfat-9% Steroid research-1 year Supplements-Creatine, hated it. and i also take whey. Yes i have read books, i don't own them, library. lol What you say will not take me away from steroids, i dont believe in waiting to genetic limit, most of all pro bodybuilder do not wait. I want to compete. I started extremely SMALL. I was 110 pounds, bulked to 180 and cut to 165. bulking again.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-18-2006, 02:40 AM	#20
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	Wow its been so long since I delt with PCT I cant even remember what I ran (dosages). But as far as Dbol I wouldnt think you need more than 25/mg day. Especially since its your first cycle.
	www.crossfit.com

08-18-2006, 02:42 AM	#21
Malley Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 10,021	Yeah I know you say what we can say wont change. I agreed whenever I was 19. I did my first cycle then. I think I shorted myself now, but I know how pigheaded people can be and I was the same way. I wont try to get you to rethink it, just give you the best and safest advice I can.
	www.crossfit.com

08-18-2006, 04:13 AM	#22
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Thanks man, but i am actually thinking about waiting, even tho they hit you with WAIT TELL YOUR 21. And then after you reach the age of 21 they hit you with GENETIC LIMIT. Kinda bull. But i dunno.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-18-2006, 12:06 PM	#23
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	Go read my response in the new thread posted by TOM (Trouble or Mudge) this morning. Read it, and then come back to this thread and ask me questions if what I am saying is not clear to you. You are 22 (or younger), and from a quick review of your stats, you are far from being at the very important point of physical optimum for use of gear. Using it now would have many negative consequences...and you would be unable to sustain the gains made. After a few cycles, you would have reaped very little net gains, and a lot of costs. A quick review of your posts here also indicates that you need to read and learn a lot more before you are ready for responsible use of gear. There is no bullshit here. There is plenty of harsh reality. There is no free ride in life. There are no real shortcuts. There are tradeoffs. Gear use has it tradeoffs. The earlier you start its use, the less likely you are to have permament benefit, but the higher your net negative costs, especially in young men of your present age. BTW, I can tell you why creatine didn't work for you, and also why you need to understand the significance of it not working. Its a good a signpost as any that your body if far from being able to use AAS as its intended.

08-18-2006, 04:59 PM	#25
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	So your saing i havent gotten very far, And also for Trouble, creatine didnt work for my father either. It just gives me head achs, so i quit taking it.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-18-2006, 05:12 PM	#26
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	So Trouble, how long should i wait.?? I get what your trying to say, but was Arnold better of not to take steroids at 15.?? I mean he would tell you no, because if he would have waited he would never acheived what he has today. I would just like to know how long, just to my genetic limit.? But i also don't get why all Pro BodyBuilder's do not wait for this genetic limit. Thanks,????
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-18-2006, 06:52 PM	#27
Trouble Anti-mediocrity Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: On Loan From A Distant Star System Posts: 2,076 Photos: 2	>So Trouble, how long should i wait? At least five more years (minimum 26-27, 7 years or hardcore training, and glucose tolerance fine-tuning. It is an option not a given, that you will need it. It depends on your goals, your genetics, and your discipline. >I get what your trying to say, but was Arnold better off not to take steroids at 15.?? That's affirmative; he was better off not to take them at so young an age. You are not Arnold S; its illogical to compare yourself to him. >I mean he would tell you no, because if he would have waited he would never acheived what he has today. Wanna bet on that? I bet if we write to him, he would say, "No, I would not have used to early; I would have waited." >I would just like to know how long, just to my genetic limit.? Depends on how hard you train and how dedicated you are to reaching that goal. Its not a matter of "when", its a matter of "if". >But i also don't get why all Pro BodyBuilder's do not wait for this genetic limit. Again, your rationalization is that if the pro bbers do it, its OK? Faulty logic. You may never make it the hard-earned ranks of the professional bodybuilder. You may, however, make it to the ranks of the seasoned and wise strength-training enthusiast, who dedicates himself to personal accomplishment. Meeting that goal of personal accomplishment does not require the use of AAS. It requires grit, drive, and determination, self control and perseverence. On failure to respond to creatine loading: You cannot bioaccumulate and use creatine as an energy source for type II fiber action if you do not have good glucose tolerance. You cannot modulate water and ion balance within cells, a direct pre-requisite to create and glycogen efficiency, without insulin sensivitvity to permit glucose entry into cells for storage, and taurine and N-acetyl cysteine to counteract ion accumulation by oxdiative phosphorylation. Therefore, sir, your lack of creatine response is a direct indicator of your lack of ability to utilize glucose and other energy sources in muscle fibers associated with optimal strength status in large compound muscle performance. You are not ready. When you can use CEE, and begin to see and feel the benefits of its effects, when you store and use glycogen efficiently, determined directly from liver lipid status and also short chain fatty acids balance in distal gut (these are exceptionally advanced notions that the other bodybuilding sites - save one or two- neglect to discuss) - then you will be ready to receive maximal benefit against the costs incurred in AAS use. This glycogen storage facet only occurs when gut health is maximized. That status assures optimal immune system function. In turn, optimal immune system function guarantees adequate repair and recovery from intense training. Until then, you are spitting in the wind.

08-18-2006, 07:13 PM	#28
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	I know i am not comparing to Arnold, also Arnold has already stated that he does not regret anything from using steroids. Also how would he have achieved what he had today, he would have been into his 20's to reach genetic limit, than now one would have noticed him. He has gotten where he was today because of steroids. But i do agree with the other terms you have stated.
No....Name!!!! In The Gym Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29

08-18-2006, 07:19 PM	#29
Tough Old Man Canine club CEO Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: baja calif, Mexico Posts: 6,933 Photos: 1