Brad224

I'm completely new to this board, and completely new to steroids. So, I have questions and I'm looking for some informed answers that I know this forum can provide.

I'm 35 and have been working out (off and on) most of my life. I've really gotten serious about it the last couple of years and I think I've made some pretty good gains. However, I feel like whether due to age or genetics or other factors outside my control, I'm hitting a plateau. I say "outside my control" because I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do: the right diet, including plenty of protein, creatine, glutamine, a good 3-day split that I change up so the routine doesn't become "routine", etc.

I'm currently around 190 pounds, 6' tall with 16.5" arms, a 47" chest, and a 32" waist. I'd like to get into the 210-220 range with corresponding increases in size (maybe 18-20" arms, 48-50" chest while maintaining my waist size or lower), after a bulk and cut down to 8-10% BF. I realize these are lofty goals, but I don't think they are completely unattainable, even at my age.

However, after everything I've been reading, even with a nice, clean bulk, the proper diet and a good split, I don't think I can reach these goals without some "gear".

So, what I'm looking for probably doesn't exist, but any help would be appreciated. I'm looking for a good, oral steriod with little to no side effects that I could do for just one cycle to help me past this plateau. I say only one cycle because (this is a key point) I'd really like to be able to keep any gains I make afterwards without the use of any more gear. Is this even possible?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Mudge

If you can't break past the plateu, maybe you need a break, or a serious routine change-up. What do you consider a change in routine?

You might want to try a week or two of higher reps, lower reps, changing bodypart order, take a week or two off, etc

If your diet is really on, then I don't see why the plateu would be a problem, and I don't think it has much of anything to do with age. This is why it gets difficult for natural bodybuilders, you really have to know what your doing, unless your one of the few gifted people who just put on pounds like crazy (most people I have known like this are pacific islanders or italians).

Orals have more side effects than most injectables, thats just the way it is. Some of the water based injectables are considered about in the same realm though, because of how quickly they are taken up by the body, although most everything is oil based.

You could reach 18" arms if you do things right on one cycle, 20" though, not damn likely without some seriously poisinous stuff, and you would bloat up worse than Oprah.

When you come off gear, you have to take other items to bring your body back to normal, as well as have anti-estrogens on hand incase your body decides it wants man-boobs thanks to the gear that your on. So you will lose some of your gains (not much if you get things right), but you'll still be taking something for a couple weeks after your 'cycle' (clomid for example).

There is a reason(s) you can't break your plateu, but I really don't think its your age or your body. How much protein are you intaking, are you balancing every meal, etc?

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MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

TheIcon

The above post gave some good info. I wouldn't suggest a oral only cycle.

Fear the Mouse

Brad224

Maybe I should look into this some more. I didn't want to delve too heavily into the "gear routine" because my wife is violently opposed to it anyway. I also didn't realize that 1) I would need to take things when coming off the cycle (to avoid things like the "man boobs") and 2) that an oral wouldn't be enough.

I suppose before I write everything else off I will take your advice and look more closely at going over my diet with a fine tooth-comb and try some of your suggestions at changing my routine. Currently I am only changing the exercises I do every other week. I should probably look into changing the order around as well as the number of reps.

Thanks for the helpful information. I'll just give it some more time before going down this road.

Mudge

You COULD just do an oral, its just not prefered by those who "know better". Most people seem to be afraid of the needle, but are ready and willing to tax the liver.

Most people are "violently opposed" or "offended" towards steroids, but alcohol and cigarrettes somehow are acceptable. I blame most of this reaction on propoganda and not being educated on the matter, but there is nothing wrong with being clean either.

It can be tough for a natural person, which is why plenty of people will be discouraged, and either go the gear route, live with thier current gains and think they've "maxed out", or maybe even quit altogether.

I don't think I'd mix up the routine every other week, but it may work for some. I am on an HST routine currently, and for the first week I was gaining in measurements every workout, not sure what the long term holds, but I have found that more frequent workouts work for me. Anything over 4 days or so and I litterally feel like I'm getting nowhere, like I'm losing 2/3 of what I would have been gaining.

Supposedly research backs up that after 3 days approximately of working out, atrophy of the muscle will begin, which is one item that the HST people use as part of the routines basis.

How much protein are you intaking daily? I'm 228 pounds, and averaging 290g right now.

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

BigAL

Try out some boldione.

I have been trying to make a picture of a
woman. Changing, yes. Developing, I
hope. Fantastic, improbable-perhaps.
Quite worthless, quite irritating, if you feel
that way. Or a slightly cockeyed ideal, if
you feel differently. It doesn't matter so
much, so long as you feel that you would
recognise her if you met her tomorrow.

--Leslie Charteris, 1939

Brad224

Mudge, thanks for the input. Not afraid of the needle (I have to give my son shots twice a week and don't have a problem getting shots either) - just don't know how I'd be able to do it to myself. And yes, my wife is taken in by the propaganda revolving around steriods. You know how it is - you hear about the guys like Lyle Alzado dying from it, but not about all the other people making gains and not suffering from ill effects.

Anyway, I'm not sure what my daily protein intake is - I only drink one protein shake a day (post-workout) and try to eat as much protein as I can through chicken, salmon, anything I can get ahold of. It sounds like I should probably get a better handle on how much I'm intaking so I can maximize the amount I need to be taking.

What is your HST routine? Where can I get more information on HST? I recently switched to a 3-day split (tris/chest - Monday, legs/abs - Wednesday, bis/back - Friday) from a three-day-a-week full body workout. I'd be willing to go back to a more frequent routine if necessary.

Thanks again for the help.

Mudge

HST http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...&highlight=hst (HST - yay or nay?)

There are abusers with roids as there are with anything, after all look how easy it would be to fall into the trap. Such gains would provide such a temptation to continue, maybe not come off roids (I have heard of people on stuff for 3 years without coming off, bad bad bad), or using heavy doses of very hard on the body items (a-bomb, etc)...

Have to know what the diet is, very important! Easy to ignore, but protein is neccessary for a positive nitrogen balance. What this does is allow the muscles to pull in more proteins than they release. This requires that you eat regularly through the day, and have balanced meals at each sitting. Getting the majority of your protein in only 1 or 2 of your daily meals will have you hitting a brick wall at some point in time.

More protein is especially important on roids. I have heard that some people who don't watch thier diet, end up with heart problems. There are probably several possibilities, but at its worst, I believe what happens is the body will pull proteins from muscles (the heart is a muscle) for other muscles that are in need of being rebuilt, this will strip beef off the heart which is obviously deadly. Diet is important to both parties, either on roids or 'clean' there is going to be no muscle building without the diet. Generic rule of thumb, 80% of your gains are reliant on diet, although of course without both hard work and diet, nothing will occur, or you will hit that wall all too quickly.

The 5 rep week of HST training is pretty hard on my left arm for some reason, so feel free to play with it as you wish. I have a slightly modded version of what you will find in the above link. There are several links in the thread. Happy reading!

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Brad224

Thanks. The HST site looks really helpful. I think I'll give it a try, along with making out a daily journal of food (i.e., protein) intake. Thanks for all the help. This should move me past the plateau pretty quickly.

Mudge

When I was on the 15 rep range part of the workout the gains were nuts, either TUT (time under tension) was 'right', or maybe my body just wanted something fresh? hmm

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Mudge

BTW, there are some legal supplements that work really well for some people, 1-Test, 1-AD, etc

Different brands out there of course, still rather pricey - but for some past thier "prime" it works very well.

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Brad224

Ok, after reading the HST stuff I saw about the 15, 10 and 5 rep stuff, but at the actual samples it only shows everything at the 10 rep range. Maybe I'm not exactly getting this, but I didn't see anything about a 15-rep range. What am I seeing/doing wrong?

By the way, going through some of the threads I saw the picture you attached. I thought it's pretty hard to see where the 20% BF was; I thought you looked like you were on a nice, clean bulk. Disregard all the worthless crap chicken-legs or chicken-daddy or whatever the hell his name is had to say. I wasn't impressed by his pictures.

Mudge

Oh well, I'm not too impressive either, coming back after a "layoff" of just going through the motions, and not watching my diet, didn't push myself in the gym, my own wall at that point was around 17" arms. I'm around 15% now, which still is not great at all, using diet to bring that down slowly. I'm 6'2" so maybe I hide it well. I'm 228 and I'd love to drop to 210 or so, at least as a temporary goal, 10% BF or so would be a great start.

I'm not doing anything special for the rep ranges stuff really, I changed it around a little to "suit" me. I do dumbell movements for benching, I do direct neck and forearm work (1 set for each 'side'), I do a little more leg and back work as well (dont forget lower back!).

I also split it so that instead of 3 days a week I'm in there 6 days actually, this is probably not going to be popular with alot of people but I like it that way. So I take thier 1 day and make it 2, so I'm still hitting the body 3x a week.

You could say what I did with my sets, is mostly do what I normally do through the week, and then divide by 3. It actually ends up being more than that (15 sets back for instance, 2 sets pullups, 2 sets rows - 1 wide 1 narrow reverse grip, and 1 lower back), but that is the direction I went.

In all honesty it was joining this site that got me going again!

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Brad224

Well, it sounds like it's working for you. I will probably customize it as well to suit my needs a little more. If it works for you, then I think you should stick to it. And yeah, I agree, this site is pretty good for keeping me in the gym. I was already pretty motivated, but after looking at some of the pictures out here I've decided I've got a long way to go.

Mudge

I look at "a long way to go" to mean not sitting on your butt, something I was doing basically just doing la-la land at the gym. So, there is only improvement from here on out!

I used a program similar to HST in the past, and it produced amazing results. Thats why after seeing such a program again, sort of legitimized it to me once again because when telling people of the program they scoff in general. I still have the stretch marks from the program that I did, I guess it was about 10 years ago. The principles were similar, but they did 2 days 12-15 reps, 2 days 10-12, and 2 days 8-10, and also mixed up rest periods once weekly (120 seconds, 90, 60). Then later on each week they add a set for about 2 months, then the final part of the program before rollover is a powerlifters style routine, 4 minute rest periods, only a couple sets, and some other interesting ideas. I never grew like before or since, so I have been a believer in more frequent yet shorter workouts for along time, and have always felt like I was losing some of my gains (however real the thoughts are) when I am on 4 and 5 day schedules. Just make sure your pushing yourself still, and not just doing 2 la-la sets

That is one thing I am relearning still, is where my limits really are. There are plenty of times on legs where you feel sick and want to quit, when in actuality I have another 5 reps in me, so I have been putting the weight up, and I think thats part of the reason the 5 rep period was kicking my ass (my left arm) so hard (not positive what it is exactly, biceps, triceps, chest workout all bother it).

Today I'll be starting 15 rep again for 1 week (instead of 2, just personal preference, hopefully thats "ok"). I can tell you my measurements and strength have gone up considerably just in these last 3 weeks on the program. For the first week litterally every day or every other day the numbers were going up all the way around. My back which not been where I want it is showing the most improvement which is great, and my bench (never been a good bencher) went from about 275 to 310 in the last 3 weeks.

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Brad224

Thanks. I'm getting a wealth of information I'm going to have to try to implement. I think I need to sit down and really get a working idea of what I'm doing so I can customize this program for myself. I really appreciate all the help you've been giving me!

Mudge

Writing stuff down definately rocks! Easy to track progress, or see if your being too easy on yourself by using the same weights for 3 weeks in a row (or etc).

I'm here to learn right along with you, good luck!

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

Mudge

The main site has some updated articles:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...&threadid=9757 (Main Site Updated for August 2002)

Kinesiology Comp Bench
MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

British Bulldog

5mg stromba tablets would make for an ok cycle do 6 a day for 6 weeks, you wont get massive but you'll hold a lot of it when you come off. oh yeah remember to use comid after.