Thread: a little help plz...

Thank you for knowing that you would need to indicate that a) you know how to eat to gain weight and b) you feel you've maxed out your natural potential.

Could I trouble you to indicate roughly what you bench, deadlift and squat? It'll help us know where you're at in terms of your development.

PS welcome to IMF.

I currently bench round 120kgs for 8 - 10 reps. my max for 1 rep is 165kgs. i try to concentrate more on incline before i get to flat bench though.

i currently deadlift 140kg for 8 - 12 reps. my max for 1 rep is 190kgs (last year)

i currently squat 130kgs for 10 - 12 reps but my max is 4 reps 180kgs (recent)

i hope this helps. thanks

Okay, translating for the 'Merkans...

Buddy's 23, been training for 8 years, six seriously.
He benches 265 lbs for 8 - 10 reps; 1-rep max is 365 lbs.
Dead: 310 lbs for 8 - 10 reps; 1-rep max is 420 lbs.
Squat: 290 lbs for 8 - 10 reps; 1-rep max is 400 lbs.
(Edit: nice lifts!)

At last count, he carried 167 lbs lean mass on his 6', 180-lb frame, at 7% bodyfat.

Now, three months later he is up to 205 lbs but doesn't feel he's gaining much mass.

Okay, Bundy. Suppose you've gained three pounds of lbm in three months - which isn't great, but isn't horrible either given how long you've been hitting it hard.

So if you've now got 170 lbs lean mass at 205 lbs, you are currently 17% bodyfat.

I can understand your frustration - but you may simply be bulking too fast. The fatter you get, the worse you'll partition.

AAS or not, I'd advise you to dial back the weight a bit, get down to around 10-12% and hold it for a few weeks before you bulk again. If you run AAS while you're still juicy, you'll aromatize too much.

Can you indicate your diet and current training, in detail?

ok i just got back from gym and got my measurements n seen last recorded. it was bout 4 n a half months ago i started bulking. im 14.9% bf. i don't know if im too happy being so high. i was planning on droppin it to around 8 - 10 % before i started anyway.

my food changes every day but i keep the calories pretty similar it would take a while to put it all down but i keep breakfast the same everyday. i start out with a shake and in it goes: a banana, 80g of oats, 6 egg whites, 250ml of no fat milk, 1 serve wpi which is 36g protien no carbs no fat. after that 1 whole meal muffin with peanut butter. it comes to just over 1000cal. morning tea, lunch and dinner all consist of meat for protien with rice, pasta or bread for carbs. i train round 5pm so before i go i have a small meal usaully 5egg whites 1 whole egg pan fried. something along those lines in being just protien. before i go to bed i have 2tbs of cottage cheese n a glass of non fat milk. i have a shake after trainging which is 50g protien, 50g carbs, 4g fat + a creatine drink. i know i've slipped a little this last couple of weeks but i think its due to seeing lack of results. sorry if its not too detailed but im pretty sure my diet is ok its just alot to write out.

as for training:

shoulders - lateral raise, front raise, rear delts, dumbel shoulder press, shrugs

triceps - cable pull downs (thats just what i call it), close grip bench press, single arm dumbel behind the head lol sorry i don't really know the correct name for some of these i just know what it is. i have alternatives to when i need a change

back - wide pull ups, lat pull down behind head, bent over rows, t bar rows, deadlifts

legs - squats, close leg press, dumbel lunge, single leg hamstring curls, different machine for hamstrings don't know what its called

biceps - dumbel bicep curls, preacher curl, 21's

(upper) chest 1 - dumbel flies, incline dumbel press, dumbel pull overs, cable pull ups, flat bench or dumbel press

(lower)chest 2 - dumbel flies, incline press, flat bench press, decline press, dips

i have alternative excersises for all of these but this is roughly how i train. u don't need reps to do u??

sorry if i forgot anything this took me forever to type out im not the best at this but if theres anything else u need to know don't hesitate to ask. btw if u don't mind me asking how many different coarses have u taken and has it been worth it for u. also what made u choose to start?

Whats your intensity level at?
How many sets per muscle group?
How long are your training sessions?
Do you change your training program?

training is pretty intense i ususally leave about 1 - 2 min rest between sets. 5 exercises for larger muslces 3 for smaller muscles. 3 - 4 sets depending what muscle n what exercise n yes i do change my training. usually training sessions are about an hour i've tried longer sessions n i tried shorter. shorter is not enough for me i just produce too much fat n longer i over train n don't grow.

by the way when i posted before my chest routin upper n lower i didn't specify that they were alternatives n not done the same week.

i've tried just about everything over the years with sets, reps different exercises and diet. i have searched other avenues before coming to this decision.

any advise on the subject is appreciated thankyou.

Its good you have experimented with your training to try to find what your body responds to although dont be ignorant to think that you have exhausted all avenues.

You say your training is pretty intense which wouldnt cut it for me. Training intensity should be through the roof both physically and mentally.

By that I mean every work set you perform should be to failure and beyond to really give the muscles a reason to grow. Of course you cant train like this all the time, you need to either take regular breaks or back of on intensifiers now and again but intensity is key whether your on juice or not so long as the calories are high enough to promote additional muscle mass.

You could probally do a low dose Test cycle of 300-400mg/w for 8-10 weeks. I wouldnt use sus, there are many disadvantages over Test E. No need for Deca.

You will only need clomid for PCT if you run a low dose Test only cycle. Remember to cut your bodyfat to below 10% to enhance gains and minimise sides but always keep learning about training and nutrition. Im sure you can do alot more fine tuning yet.

Originally Posted by Bundy09

ok i just got back from gym and got my measurements n seen last recorded. it was bout 4 n a half months ago i started bulking. im 14.9% bf. i don't know if im too happy being so high. i was planning on droppin it to around 8 - 10 % before i started anyway.

my food changes every day but i keep the calories pretty similar it would take a while to put it all down but i keep breakfast the same everyday. i start out with a shake and in it goes: a banana, 80g of oats, 6 egg whites, 250ml of no fat milk, 1 serve wpi which is 36g protein no carbs no fat. after that 1 whole meal muffin with peanut butter. it comes to just over 1000cal. morning tea, lunch and dinner all consist of meat for protein with rice, pasta or bread for carbs. i train round 5pm so before i go i have a small meal usaully 5egg whites 1 whole egg pan fried. something along those lines in being just protein. before i go to bed i have 2tbs of cottage cheese n a glass of non fat milk. i have a shake after trainging which is 50g protein, 50g carbs, 4g fat + a creatine drink. i know i've slipped a little this last couple of weeks but i think its due to seeing lack of results. sorry if its not too detailed but im pretty sure my diet is ok its just alot to write out.

Fats look really low. Might consider bringing these up a bit - you do need SOME fats; fish oil would do you good (10g is a good start), also olive oil for the monos, and some butter, egg yolks, red meat for the saturated fat. Helps with test production. Pay for it with some of your carb intake.

My .02

as for training:

shoulders - lateral raise, front raise, rear delts, dumbel shoulder press, shrugs

triceps - cable pull downs (thats just what i call it), close grip bench press, single arm dumbel behind the head lol sorry i don't really know the correct name for some of these i just know what it is. i have alternatives to when i need a change

back - wide pull ups, lat pull down behind head, bent over rows, t bar rows, deadlifts

You might want to reconsider some of your training. You're doing a LOT of isolation work; also wide grips and lat pull downs behind the head give you no advantage over shoulder width or narrower weighted chins - the bang for buck ratio just isn't there for the rotator cuff strain. Think about it - you're triangulating the force, introducing a horizontal component that is taken away from the lat and placed ON the rotator cuff. Behind the neck just exacerbates this problem.

One-arm lat pulldowns on the other hand are a great finisher - if you have hammerstrenth, do them there, alternating arms like you're crawling up a wall - "spidermans".

Deads and t bars are great. Weighted chins will do you a world of good. Maybe toss some cleans in somewhere as well. Rack pulls would make a nice addition too - and you could ditch the shrugs entirely with these two movements. Front raises won't hurt you, but they can go. Try Olympic bar corner presses - those are awesome. You'll love them.

legs - squats, close leg press, dumbel lunge, single leg hamstring curls, different machine for hamstrings don't know what its called

Hamstring curls don't do much to build hams. You are doing deads, which is great, but I'd like to see RDLs, Good Mornings and Glute Ham Raises in here somewhere. Some more single-leg work would be good too - walking lunges and split squats, stepups, bulgarian split squats...

biceps - dumbel bicep curls, preacher curl, 21's

(upper) chest 1 - dumbel flies, incline dumbel press, dumbel pull overs, cable pull ups, flat bench or dumbel press

(lower)chest 2 - dumbel flies, incline press, flat bench press, decline press, dips

i have alternative exersises for all of these but this is roughly how i train. u don't need reps to do u??

sorry if i forgot anything this took me forever to type out im not the best at this but if theres anything else u need to know don't hesitate to ask. btw if u don't mind me asking how many different coarses have u taken and has it been worth it for u. also what made u choose to start?

You asking this of me? In physiology, kines, biochem...? None. I just read - a LOT.

I do have two science degrees though - undergrad in Stats, graduate work in OpLog. Helps to be a linear thinker when you live on BB boards and pubmed. I'd love to make the time to take some university courses in these areas, though. Endocrinology fascinates me.

Originally Posted by Shadowcam

Its good you have experimented with your training to try to find what your body responds to although dont be ignorant to think that you have exhausted all avenues.

You say your training is pretty intense which wouldnt cut it for me. Training intensity should be through the roof both physically and mentally.

By that I mean every work set you perform should be to failure and beyond to really give the muscles a reason to grow. Of course you cant train like this all the time, you need to either take regular breaks or back of on intensifiers now and again but intensity is key whether your on juice or not so long as the calories are high enough to promote additional muscle mass.

You could probally do a low dose Test cycle of 300-400mg/w for 8-10 weeks. I wouldnt use sus, there are many disadvantages over Test E. No need for Deca.

You will only need clomid for PCT if you run a low dose Test only cycle. Remember to cut your bodyfat to below 10% to enhance gains and minimise sides but always keep learning about training and nutrition. Im sure you can do alot more fine tuning yet.

I defer to your knowledge of cycles, Shadowcam - what you've written certainly looks to be in line with what others whose opinion I respect in these matters would suggest.

However, I don't think I've trained to failure in my entire life. Why would you think it was a good thing to do - or is this just for assisted athletes?

assisted or otherwise makes no difference except for the duration of the intensity cycles and volume.

You should note that in my previous post I mention not training this way all the time meaning taking a week off every 8 weeks or cutting back on intensity in cycles to prevent overtraining.

And of course training with such high intensity means less volume is required.

I am convinced this is the best way to train for MUSCLE MASS based on all the clients I have trained and myself.

Okay, I heard you before, I just wonder WHY you say that. I've put on more mass than many women I know, and I've never trained this way.

appreciate the info on training and diet. i do believe no matter how good something is there is always room for improvement. i do however eat fats in my daily calorie intake, sorry i forgot to put them in but i do eat red meat, olive oil, avocado n also dairy fats. with training to fail i do for the final set of every exercise but i do tend to lower intensity when not feeling 100% or that my body needs a rest.

as for test over sus, sus is easily available but i can't get my hands on test from anyone i know. would u not recomend isus at all?? what disadvantages over test does it have in your experience?

Sus has multiple easters which makes it harder to keep blood levels consistant.

you will also have to inject eod (due to the short easter) to get the most out of sus which isnt very appealing if you new to needles.

What do you have planned for PCT??

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, I heard you before, I just wonder WHY you say that. I've put on more mass than many women I know, and I've never trained this way.

Maybe you should try, you may put on even more mass.

is 250mg twice a week totaling 500mg a week of sus no good??

pct i was thinking nolva or clomid. not 100% sure on which one yet i'm leaning more towards nolvadex only because its said to have no sides where as clomid has given some people funny reactions. i've got questions about that to though. do u suggest leaing it 3 weeks before starting pct or if i start noticing it earlier can i start nolva earlier?

is there anything i can take during my cycle to help prevent the sides of sus?

For what you want I would try Test E, longer esters so you can shoot only twice a week. Do it 3.5 days apart (ie. Monday morning and Thursday evening)
Since sustanon has shorter esters you have to shoot every other day (EOD).
Maybe try taking something to kickstart your cycle
ie. Weeks 1-12 500ml/wk Test E
Weeks 1-4 40mg/day D-bol.

Make sure you know your PCT, gyno is a killer post cycle. As for cloma/nolva I think it's a personal opinion, people will argue advantages and disadvantages of both until they are blue in the face. I do know a PCT should be taken 2 weeks after the last injection of your cycle. Hope this helped

Originally Posted by Shadowcam

Maybe you should try, you may put on even more mass.

My understanding is that by deliberately working to failure as a rule, the CNS learns to crap out early, to protect you from the peril of hitting muscular failure.

Many limit their development by overemploying this method as a modality.

I'm not interested in limiting my potential. Plus I'm lazy and flat out refuse to do any more work than I set out to. If I get to the end of my set and feel I have more in the tank, I stop anyway - I just set my goal higher for next workout.

Keeps me sane.

Peace.

You are likely overtraining. Look into periodization.

You can shoot sustanon twice weekly with great results. Just run it for atleast 12 weeks with hcg and an aromatase inhibitor. Plan for a long agressive PCT, as it takes a looong time to completely clear your system.

Originally Posted by Built

My understanding is that by deliberately working to failure as a rule, the CNS learns to crap out early, to protect you from the peril of hitting muscular failure.

Many limit their development by overemploying this method as a modality.

I'm not interested in limiting my potential. Plus I'm lazy and flat out refuse to do any more work than I set out to. If I get to the end of my set and feel I have more in the tank, I stop anyway - I just set my goal higher for next workout.

Keeps me sane.

Peace.

I agree, training to failure all the time takes its toll on the CNS thats why I advise to take regular breaks or back off intensity in cycles.

Im not to concerned with sanity, that went out the window long time ago.

whats the recomended time frame of pct after a 10 - 12 week cycle of sustanon taking 500mg a week (every 3.5 days 250mg)? and would u recomend arimidex or aromasin for inhibitor. i was going to use arimidex and start it the day of my cycle, but this is my first cycle and im not 100% sure on anything so i would rather get as much feed back and advise as posible from people that are experienced before i make up my mind and start.
thank you to everyone that has an input so far there is some very useful info there that will come in handy.

Originally Posted by Shadowcam

I agree, training to failure all the time takes its toll on the CNS thats why I advise to take regular breaks or back off intensity in cycles.

Im not to concerned with sanity, that went out the window long time ago.

Ah, we are on the same page then. LOL at sanity - it really is a comfort when that leaves!

Originally Posted by Bundy09

whats the recomended time frame of pct after a 10 - 12 week cycle of sustanon taking 500mg a week (every 3.5 days 250mg)? and would u recomend arimidex or aromasin for inhibitor. i was going to use arimidex and start it the day of my cycle, but this is my first cycle and im not 100% sure on anything so i would rather get as much feed back and advise as posible from people that are experienced before i make up my mind and start.
thank you to everyone that has an input so far there is some very useful info there that will come in handy.

You CAN'T do Sust 3.5 days apart, the esters are too short. Meaning the effects wont last the 3.5 days between each injection. Something like Test E with longer esters can be taken 3.5 days apart. Sustanon has to be taken every other day.

As for the PCT, start it 2 weeks after the LAST injection.

I diagree. You will see great results at twice weekly. Only a small portion is prop. No need convincing him to get test e if he can't get it. I ran sustanon twice weekly for my first cycle, and it went well.

For PCT, start about 12 after your last shot and run tamoxifen citrate at the following doses

Week
1-3: 60 mg/day
4-5: 30 mg/day
6:10 mg/day

Use hcg on cycle until you start PCT. Research how to dose hcg.

Originally Posted by Pirate!

I diagree. You will see great results at twice weekly. Only a small portion is prop. No need convincing him to get test e if he can't get it. I ran sustanon twice weekly for my first cycle, and it went well.

For PCT, start about 12 after your last shot and run tamoxifen citrate at the following doses

Week
1-3: 60 mg/day
4-5: 30 mg/day
6:10 mg/day

Use hcg on cycle until you start PCT. Research how to dose hcg.

Agreed on sust - the prop will give a couple of weekly peaks but the underlying longer esters will be flat-ish.

Pirate, you may want to provide some units on "start about 12 after...".

Bundy, keep us posted on how you get on. Enjoy...

Pct should start 17-21 days after last shot of sust.

Two short bursts of clomid at 100mg/d for 5 on 2 off 5 on should be sufficent.

ok well i'll have to make a decision on twice a week or eod, but it is my first cycle so twice a week might be enough to at least test how i react to sus. do u sugest keeping the same dose from start to finish or do it like someone else suggested like a pyramid start at 250mg a week for first 3 weeks then up it to 500mg a week for 4weeks then drop it back to 250mg for final 3 weeks??

I meant to say 12 days after the last shot, and that is pretty early. You could wait a little longer. I lean toward starting pct earlier and extending it longer.

No need to pyramid. 250 mg twice weekly the whole run.

Best of luck, I've never ran Sust 3.5 days apart. I usually use Test E for that, but availibility is an issue.
Let me know how the cycle goes.

You might do well to go back and read this thread. It outlines why it makes sense to pin eod, you can go 125mg eod, but it's up to you in the end.

Sustanon 250 only cycle - no results