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Cammer9
01-19-2010, 05:12 AM
Can someone help me with choosing the best products for achieving the goals I have set for myself? I am 46 years old, 6'5" and weigh 190 lbs with not too much fat. I have been using HGH & Aromasin daily, HCG twice a week and Cypionate once a week for the last 3 years. I just can't afford this any longer and I'm not getting the gains that I'd really like to get. All this seems to have done for me is made my body much leaner. I'd like to see some strength and size as well. I'm not familiar with anything else so I really need someone to guide me if possible. I follow a good diet and am in the gym 4 days a week (eod). Looking for the right combination that will produce muscle growth yet won't take away sex drive.

Thank you!!!

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 05:33 AM
Can someone help me with choosing the best products for achieving the goals I have set for myself? I am 46 years old, 6'5" and weigh 190 lbs with not too much fat. I have been using HGH & Aromasin daily, HCG twice a week and Cypionate once a week for the last 3 years. I just can't afford this any longer and I'm not getting the gains that I'd really like to get. All this seems to have done for me is made my body much leaner. I'd like to see some strength and size as well. I'm not familiar with anything else so I really need someone to guide me if possible. I follow a good diet and am in the gym 4 days a week (eod). Looking for the right combination that will produce muscle growth yet won't take away sex drive.

Thank you!!!
As far as cost goes your HGH is probably the least bang for the buck. If it is not expensive I could see keeping it in the stack but frankly you can increase IGF-1 levels with just steroids. In clinical human trials it was discovered that IGF-1 levels increased dose dependantly with Testosterone. In other words the more you use the higher IGF-1. It has also been scientifically proven the more Testosterone administered weekly the more strength, size, power and fat free mass. So I usually tell guys to experiment with higher doses of T before adding other compounds. T is cheap and very effective. 600mg weekly is a decent dose that illicits few sides. I have written about this here;

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabolic-zone/104658-first-cycle-pct.html

Sex drive is a function of Estradiol to Free Testosterone when speaking hormonally. As long as this ratio is kept in balance sex drive will be fine. Keep using the Aromasin as this controls Estro and raises Free T.

To benefit from higher dose T you need to inject twice weekly. This will keep T levels higher and more stsble which equates to more performance in the gym.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 12:41 PM
Thank you so much for the information, is there another estrogen blocker other than Aromasin that you would recommend? Aromasin is very expensive and tough for me to get.

Thank you again for the information!

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Thank you so much for the information, is there another estrogen blocker other than Aromasin that you would recommend? Aromasin is very expensive and tough for me to get.

Thank you again for the information!
You are very welcome.

Aromasin is the best aromatase inhibitor for men but Arimidex will work.

MtR
01-19-2010, 01:55 PM
Thank you so much for the information, is there another estrogen blocker other than Aromasin that you would recommend? Aromasin is very expensive and tough for me to get.

Thank you again for the information!


Researchstop.com has Aromasin for $80 (exemesolut) and at full dose it will last you 2 months. CEM has it as well however it is not as good a buy but still a great company.

weldingman
01-19-2010, 02:30 PM
You know all that sounds attractive, but guys genetics play a huge part on roids, working out and everything. Iv known men who have taking the same thing I have and didnt produce hardly nothing in the gym or anything else, genes plays a huge part in all of what we discuss on all these threads. You just cant take something and espect to look like the next guy.

MtR
01-19-2010, 02:32 PM
You know all that sounds attractive, but guys genetics play a huge part on roids, working out and everything. Iv known men who have taking the same thing I have and didnt produce hardly nothing in the gym or anything else, genes plays a huge part in all of what we discuss on all these threads. You just cant take something and espect to look like the next guy.


Very true which is why I try to improve myself for myself only. I could care less if I'm the biggest guy in the gym or what people think of my physique. Why try to be like somebody else? Be yourself.

dave 236
01-19-2010, 04:35 PM
Can someone help me with choosing the best products for achieving the goals I have set for myself? I am 46 years old, 6'5" and weigh 190 lbs with not too much fat. I have been using HGH & Aromasin daily, HCG twice a week and Cypionate once a week for the last 3 years. I just can't afford this any longer and I'm not getting the gains that I'd really like to get. All this seems to have done for me is made my body much leaner. I'd like to see some strength and size as well. I'm not familiar with anything else so I really need someone to guide me if possible. I follow a good diet and am in the gym 4 days a week (eod). Looking for the right combination that will produce muscle growth yet won't take away sex drive.

Thank you!!!
It also sounds to me like you need to increase your calories.190 is pretty light for your height ; you wont gain much without enough fuel.

Mudge
01-19-2010, 04:59 PM
6'5" 190 pounds on cypionate for 3 years??? You need to take a serious look at that diet again, eating well isn't enough to gain weight you need some quantity along with that quality. Such a long long cycle though really is not something I'd advise especially in the realm of someone just trying to look a little better.

Diet diet diet, you've concentrated on drugs for 3 years and obviously that isn't doing it - because drugs don't do it alone. Remember that some of the pros actually start dropping weight at 7k calories a day, because they gained on big calories.

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 05:16 PM
Thank you all for the solid input, I agree that my weight is light and I need to be adding more quality calories. The program I have been on is through an age management program. I am trying to find some solid advise to move away from this expensive program. I get all my products from the age management clinic and have asked where else I could seek products from. They of course don't want to help send me that route as it will cause me to quit paying them thier fee's and buying products from them to.

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 06:05 PM
Thank you all for the solid input, I agree that my weight is light and I need to be adding more quality calories. The program I have been on is through an age management program. I am trying to find some solid advise to move away from this expensive program. I get all my products from the age management clinic and have asked where else I could seek products from. They of course don't want to help send me that route as it will cause me to quit paying them thier fee's and buying products from them to.
I assumed you were on HRT. What have your doses been for the last 3 years?

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 07:04 PM
Doses have been:

1.2 mg Genotropin daily, 6 days a week

10,000 USP Unit Noverel mixed with 1.5 ml dilutant (this is for three injections or 1 1/2 weeks) I was injecting this 2 times per week.

300 ml Cypionate per week / one injection

75 mg Aromasin daily, 6 days a week

Sorry about my explaination on the HCG not sure how that calculates.

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 07:10 PM
Doses have been:

1.2 mg Genotropin daily, 6 days a week

10,000 USP Unit Noverel mixed with 1.5 ml dilutant (this is for three injections or 1 1/2 weeks) I was injecting this 2 times per week.

300 ml Cypionate per week / one injection

75 mg Aromasin daily, 6 days a week

Sorry about my explaination on the HCG not sure how that calculates.


Are you sure the GH isn't in IU's?

That is a ton of HCG. 500iu HCG twice weekly is usually plenty.

Cyp is a little over replacement but fine.

WAY too much Aromasin. Probably because the HCG is so high and is aromatizing.

Have you ever had labs while on?

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 07:36 PM
The HGH are the pre-mixed miniQuick doses that say 1.2 mg on the box.

The HCG says to mix the 10000 unit bottle with 1.5 ml dilutant and then inject 0.5 ml two times a week.

I started out with 25 mg of Aromasin per day. But after having my blood work done I was told my (esterdile?) was high, I then was put on 75 mg per day and after last blood work I was told to stay at 75 mg per day.

I was incorrect on the Cypionate it is 200 mg once a week.

I also take DHEA IR 50 mg. per day 6 days a week.

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 07:49 PM
The HGH are the pre-mixed miniQuick doses that say 1.2 mg on the box.

The HCG says to mix the 10000 unit bottle with 1.5 ml dilutant and then inject 0.5 ml two times a week.

I started out with 25 mg of Aromasin per day. But after having my blood work done I was told my (esterdile?) was high, I then was put on 75 mg per day and after last blood work I was told to stay at 75 mg per day.

I was incorrect on the Cypionate it is 200 mg once a week.

I also take DHEA IR 50 mg. per day 6 days a week.

Ok, your doc may be old school and not know the recent science of low dose HCG. Your HCG is a big problem because it raises Testosterone which converts to Estro so then you have to use more Aromasin. Essentially you are shooting 6,600 iu HCG weekly when you only need about 1,000iu.

Check out this clinical human trial on low dose HCG;

This study demonstrates that around 300iu HCG every other day is needed to raise ITT levels to baseline while administering Testosterone. That's 1,050iu HCG weekly.



Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu (a-coviello@northwestern.edu).

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

full study;
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/5/2595)


So if you shoot 500iu HCG twice weekly you will have enough stimulation to your testes but not so much it converts to a large amount of Estradiol this will in turn allow you to take less Aromasin.

Here is what I propose for your goals;

Sun
Mon 500iu HCG, 25mg Aromasin
Tue 300mg Testosterone Cypionate, 25mg Aromasin
Wed 25mg Aromasin
Thur 25mg Aromasin
Fri 500iu HCG, 25mg Aromasin
Sat 300mg Testosterone Cypionate, 25mg Aromasin

HGH is optional

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 08:13 PM
Thank you again for your advise and research information. I'll go to your proposed program and give it a try. That sure does sound better than taking so much Aromasin and HCG. That could explain a lot of the way I have been feeling having my estradiol up so high. The doctor wanted to switch me to Tamoxifen and Anastrozole because I was complaining about the amount I was spending on Aromasin.

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 08:19 PM
Thank you again for your advise and research information. I'll go to your proposed program and give it a try. That sure does sound better than taking so much Aromasin and HCG. That could explain a lot of the way I have been feeling having my estradiol up so high. The doctor wanted to switch me to Tamoxifen and Anastrozole because I was complaining about the amount I was spending on Aromasin.
Can you get labs about 5-6 weeks after starting this?

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 08:20 PM
I think so.

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 08:27 PM
I think so.
Your T will be sky high but at least we can dial in your Aromasin with the Estradiol/Free T numbers.


Oh, by the way you will only run the above proposed cycle for 10 weeks and then you need to reduce the Test to 300mg per week. This is called blasting and cruising.

Cammer9
01-19-2010, 08:31 PM
Will do, thank you soo much!!!

heavyiron
01-19-2010, 08:35 PM
Will do, thank you soo much!!!
You are very welcome

weldingman
01-19-2010, 08:38 PM
heavyironwikapidia, lol I must say you know a lot of detailed stuff, great thread:thumb:

aatroupis
07-02-2014, 09:43 PM
I like this stack a lot but am thinking of using as HCG in there as well. I am about 196 pounds 6'1 my test is low, it sucks first time it dumped on me. Anyway you seem like a man without a lot of knowledge. Of course I well get my blood test to see my E2 levels, and overall base levels but the testicle shrinkage bugs me. This might sound dumb but do I use HCG as I taper off, or should I just go the typical route with Clomid. Comments Suggestions Thanks