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View Full Version : Clomid vs. Nolva



Arnold
12-29-2010, 07:25 PM
This seems to be something that is asked about often, lets discuss both of these compounds, their uses, and pros and cons.

TwisT
12-29-2010, 07:42 PM
Tumbleweed.... ;)

The biggest con for me out of either of them would be the fact that Nolavdex has been shown to decrease IGF levels which is critical in PCT...we really don't need that. But on the contrary, Clomid is well known for causing severe acne and causing sight problems. In my eyes, the optimal PCT would include both nolvadex and IGF-1 lr3.

-T

DarkHorse
12-29-2010, 07:49 PM
Have any of those sight problems, in regards to clomid, been permanent or are they temporary?

TwisT
12-29-2010, 07:58 PM
Have any of those sight problems, in regards to clomid, been permanent or are they temporary?

From what I have come to understand, clomid (along with nolvadex) can in some extreme cases cause severe and permanent damage. I don't have any case studies off the top of my head to back this up, so someone pipe up and correct me if I am wrong :)

-T

heavyiron
12-29-2010, 08:09 PM
Have any of those sight problems, in regards to clomid, been permanent or are they temporary?
It has never been proven permanent to my knowledge.

Fertil Steril. (http://javascript<b></b>:AL_get(this, &#39;jour&#39;, &#39;Fertil Steril.&#39;);) 2010 Mar 1;93(4):1169-72. Epub 2009 Jan 9.

An investigation of the visual disturbances experienced by patients on clomiphene citrate.

Racette L (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/pubmed?term=%22Racette%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D), Casson PR (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/pubmed?term=%22Casson%20PR%22%5BAuthor%5D), Claman P (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/pubmed?term=%22Claman%20P%22%5BAuthor%5D), Zackon DH (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/pubmed?term=%22Zackon%20DH%22%5BAuthor%5D), Casson EJ (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/pubmed?term=%22Casson%20EJ%22%5BAuthor%5D).
The University of Ottawa Eye Institute, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. lracette@glaucoma.ucsd.edu (lracette@glaucoma.ucsd.edu)

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the impact of clomiphene citrate on vision.
DESIGN: Observational study.
SETTING: Patients were referred to the University of Ottawa Eye Institute ophthalmology clinic from the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of the Ottawa Hospital-General Campus.
PATIENT(S): Eight adult females taking clomiphene citrate and experiencing visual disturbances.
INTERVENTION(S): Patients received a comprehensive visual evaluation twice: once during a washout period, and once during an active clomiphene citrate treatment.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Ophthalmologic examination, color vision, visual acuity, contrast sensitivity, visual fields using standard automated perimetry, and foveal flicker sensitivity at high (32 Hz) and low (8 Hz) temporal frequencies.
RESULT(S): We found no differences between the washout and clomiphene citrate conditions for color vision, visual acuity, contrast sensitivity, and visual fields. The only statistically significant difference was found for foveal flicker sensitivity at 32 Hz in the right eye, with a similar trend in the left eye and at 8 Hz in both eyes.
CONCLUSION(S): The effect of clomiphene citrate on vision was minimal, and the visual disturbances were reversible in all patients. A bilateral reduction in flicker sensitivity was the only observed visual disturbance. Women who experience visual symptoms associated with clomiphene citrate should be monitored, but therapy can usually be maintained.


Copyright 2010 American Society for Reproductive Medicine. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID: 19135656 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

TwisT
12-29-2010, 08:14 PM
It can effect retinal vein... but the side effects seem to be reversible.

Central retinal vein occlusion secondary to clomiphene treatment in a male carrier of factor V Leiden.

Politou M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Politou%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D), Gialeraki A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Gialeraki%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D), Merkouri E (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Merkouri%20E%22%5BAuthor%5D), Travlou A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Travlou%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D), Baltatzis S (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Baltatzis%20S%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Abstract

We report a case of a 35-year-old previously healthy man treated with clomiphene for infertility, who presented with blurred vision in his left eye due to ocular vein occlusion as documented by fluorescein angiography. The patient was heterozygous for the factor V Leiden (FV Leiden) mutation and for the 1298 A-C polymorphism of the methylene-tetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene. He was treated with clopidogrel and is now free of symptoms. Because congenital thrombophilia is a moderate risk factor for central retinal vein occlusion and the administration of clomiphene may trigger this process, we recommend screening of young patients for FV Leiden before clomiphene treatment.



PMID: 19371211 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

heavyiron
12-29-2010, 08:20 PM
It can effect retinal vein... but the side effects seem to be reversible.

Central retinal vein occlusion secondary to clomiphene treatment in a male carrier of factor V Leiden.

Politou M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Politou%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D), Gialeraki A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Gialeraki%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D), Merkouri E (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Merkouri%20E%22%5BAuthor%5D), Travlou A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Travlou%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D), Baltatzis S (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Baltatzis%20S%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Abstract

We report a case of a 35-year-old previously healthy man treated with clomiphene for infertility, who presented with blurred vision in his left eye due to ocular vein occlusion as documented by fluorescein angiography. The patient was heterozygous for the factor V Leiden (FV Leiden) mutation and for the 1298 A-C polymorphism of the methylene-tetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene. He was treated with clopidogrel and is now free of symptoms. Because congenital thrombophilia is a moderate risk factor for central retinal vein occlusion and the administration of clomiphene may trigger this process, we recommend screening of young patients for FV Leiden before clomiphene treatment.



PMID: 19371211 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


We cannot draw a conclusion based on one person. This abstract is NOT proving a direct link between Clomid and ocular vein occlusion.

TwisT
12-29-2010, 08:24 PM
I should rephrase... It may effect the retinal vein :thinking: haha

I'll keep looking... this is interesting! I thought for sure we could find something a bit more convincing!

-T

TwisT
12-29-2010, 08:27 PM
Association between Clomiphene Citrate and Visual Disturbances with Special Emphasis on Central Retinal Vein Occlusion: A Review.

Viola MI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Viola%20MI%22%5BAuthor%5D), Meyer D (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Meyer%20D%22%5BAuthor%5D), Kruger T (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Kruger%20T%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Reproductive Medicine Unit, Stellenbosch University and Vincent Pallotti Hospital, Cape Town, South Africa.
Abstract

Objectives: To determine whether clomiphene citrate (CC) can be implicated as a cause for central retinal vein occlusion (CRVO) and other visual disturbances. Methods: For this systematic review, we performed a search of the following databases: PubMed (1976 to November 2009), Medline Plus 2009, Cochrane Library (1996 to November 2009), Google and Google Scholar (1996 to November 2009). Thirty-five relevant titles (25 full papers and 10 abstracts) were identified and read by authors. No review has been published in the literature. The publications included describe adverse effects with clomid and selective estrogen receptor modulators and in particular visual disturbances. The population consisted of infertility patients under ovulation induction with CC. The main outcome measures were loss of vision due to CRVO and other visual changes. Results: CC may predispose to CRVO, but further trials are clearly needed in this area. Conclusion: Physicians should be aware of the potential risk of CC, especially in patients with associated risk factors for CRVO. If visual disturbances occur, therapy should be terminated and the patient referred for specialist ophthalmic care.




May may may....nothing proven....


-T

TwisT
12-29-2010, 08:31 PM
Study involved only 3 people, but all three developed serve problems that didn't get better after clomid stopped.

Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate.

Purvin VA (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Purvin%20VA%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Midwest Eye Institute, Methodist Hospital of Indiana, Indianapolis, USA.
Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To identify a distinctive constellation of persistent visual abnormalities secondary to treatment with clomiphene citrate.
DESIGN: Description of the clinical findings in three patients with visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene treatment.
SETTING: A neuro-ophthalmology referral center.
PATIENTS: Three women aged 32 to 36 years treated for infertility with clomiphene for 4 to 15 months.
RESULTS: All three patients experienced prolonged afterimages (palinopsia), shimmering of the peripheral field, and photophobia while undergoing treatment with clomiphene. The results of the neuro-ophthalmologic examination and electrophysiologic studies were normal in all three patients. Unlike previously reported cases, visual symptoms did not resolve on cessation of treatment. Patients remain symptomatic from 2 to 7 years after discontinuing treatment with the medication.
CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with clomiphene can cause prolonged visual disturbance. Patients who develop such symptoms should be advised that continued administration may cause irreversible changes. Women with characteristic visual symptoms should be questioned about past use of clomiphene.

heavyiron
12-29-2010, 08:49 PM
Association between Clomiphene Citrate and Visual Disturbances with Special Emphasis on Central Retinal Vein Occlusion: A Review.

Viola MI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Viola%20MI%22%5BAuthor%5D), Meyer D (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Meyer%20D%22%5BAuthor%5D), Kruger T (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Kruger%20T%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Reproductive Medicine Unit, Stellenbosch University and Vincent Pallotti Hospital, Cape Town, South Africa.
Abstract

Objectives: To determine whether clomiphene citrate (CC) can be implicated as a cause for central retinal vein occlusion (CRVO) and other visual disturbances. Methods: For this systematic review, we performed a search of the following databases: PubMed (1976 to November 2009), Medline Plus 2009, Cochrane Library (1996 to November 2009), Google and Google Scholar (1996 to November 2009). Thirty-five relevant titles (25 full papers and 10 abstracts) were identified and read by authors. No review has been published in the literature. The publications included describe adverse effects with clomid and selective estrogen receptor modulators and in particular visual disturbances. The population consisted of infertility patients under ovulation induction with CC. The main outcome measures were loss of vision due to CRVO and other visual changes. Results: CC may predispose to CRVO, but further trials are clearly needed in this area. Conclusion: Physicians should be aware of the potential risk of CC, especially in patients with associated risk factors for CRVO. If visual disturbances occur, therapy should be terminated and the patient referred for specialist ophthalmic care.




May may may....nothing proven....


-T



Just FYI, this is a very recent review. You left off the date when you copied it. It was done this month after an extensive search of the databases. Here is the date.

Gynecol Obstet Invest. (http://javascript<b></b>:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Gynecol Obstet Invest.');) 2010 Dec 16. [Epub ahead of print]

TwisT
12-29-2010, 09:00 PM
Left the date out of all of em actually haha :thinking: I paste em bottom up...bad habit I guess

-T


Just FYI, this is a very recent review. You left off the date when you copied it. It was done this month after an extensive search of the databases. Here is the date.

Gynecol Obstet Invest. (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:AL_get%28this,%20%27jour%27,%20%27Gynecol%20O bstet%20Invest.%27%29;) 2010 Dec 16. [Epub ahead of print]

Runner22
12-29-2010, 09:35 PM
Can anyone further discuss the use of IGF-1 lr3 along with Nolva during PCT. I have been reading all the research I can find and half claim Clomid is the way to go and the half swear by Nolvadex. I had planned to use Nolvadex because the apparent acne issues which is a very undesirable to mo, but tolerable if no other option is availbale. Also, Im going to run Aromasin as my AI throughout the cycle and PCT.

G3
12-30-2010, 10:19 AM
I have never had problems with vision on Clomid but a buddy called me and said "Hey I can't see a fucking thing, is there something about the stuff we're taking that can cause vision problems"? That was on only 50 mg/day, on the 4th day he took it. I told him to stop taking the clomid and continue with Nolva (we used to do both before the board convinced us otherwise). He was fine in only a day or two. He couldn't even describe his issue except to say he couldn't see well.

The Prototype
12-30-2010, 11:53 AM
If I have enough Nolva and Clomid for PCT, do you recommend I take both, or should we just stick to the standard Clomid only PCT? I have plenty of Nolva and Clomid to run both for my PCT. If it makes for a better PCT, I don't mind running both but if there is no benefit of running both then I'd like to stick to just the Clomid therapy.

DarkHorse
12-30-2010, 12:16 PM
If I have enough Nolva and Clomid for PCT, do you recommend I take both, or should we just stick to the standard Clomid only PCT? I have plenty of Nolva and Clomid to run both for my PCT. If it makes for a better PCT, I don't mind running both but if there is no benefit of running both then I'd like to stick to just the Clomid therapy.


I was always curious as to the results of taking both for PCT. I’ve read on IM that some people take both, but they never elaborated as to how this is beneficial

G3
12-30-2010, 01:20 PM
I took both for my first PCT because LLewlyn recommended it in his anabolics book. Most people on here seem to be against any use of Nolva, unless necessary.

DarkHorse
12-30-2010, 01:34 PM
I took both for my first PCT because LLewlyn recommended it in his anabolics book. Most people on here seem to be against any use of Nolva, unless necessary.


But did you have better results than taking just one of them?

heavyiron
12-30-2010, 03:43 PM
I took both for my first PCT because LLewlyn recommended it in his anabolics book. Most people on here seem to be against any use of Nolva, unless necessary.


Here is the uncontrolled study Llewellyn wrote about.

HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment (http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf)
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR (http://www.medibolics.com/)

Objective Results Discussion

To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.

Methods

An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.

Results

Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion

The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.

http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65511&d=1201505785

http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65512&d=1201505785

G3
12-30-2010, 04:05 PM
But did you have better results than taking just one of them?


I don't know yet. I'm only going on my second PCT in about 2 weeks. I just talked to my buddy that had the clomid problem and he said he had blurry vision about 1 hour after taking the clomid and that it lasted for a few hours everytime he took it. He said his vision didn't get back to 100% until he was clompletely off of it for a few days.

GreatWhiteTruth
12-31-2010, 12:43 PM
Just finished my PCT with clomid. I noticed that in low-light conditions, while dosing 100mg, my vision was blurry. It made it difficult to drive at night. However, after ramping down to 50mg I didn't notice it anymore. Maybe I had become use to it, or maybe it wasn't as severe I don't know.:hmmm: But I definitely noticed a difference when I lowered the dose.

heavyiron
12-31-2010, 12:53 PM
Just finished my PCT with clomid. I noticed that in low-light conditions, while dosing 100mg, my vision was blurry. It made it difficult to drive at night. However, after ramping down to 50mg I didn't notice it anymore. Maybe I had become use to it, or maybe it wasn't as severe I don't know.:hmmm: But I definitely noticed a difference when I lowered the dose.
Yup, that sounds normal for Clomid.