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Calf ?
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Dr. Pain
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Do both seated and standing raises, try moving toes, out, in and center until you find the "Hit" you're looking for! 
DP
DP
Oh jeez....here we go again!
I work my calves with my toes pointed forward always. Moving your toes in or out will have very little effect, if any at all.
What are you using to work your calves? What exercise(s)? Machines(s) etc.
I work my calves with my toes pointed forward always. Moving your toes in or out will have very little effect, if any at all.
What are you using to work your calves? What exercise(s)? Machines(s) etc.
Hmmm....this is weeeeeiiiiirrrrddd. I was gonna post a calf thread tonight after I got home from the gym and I hadn't had time, yet. Just_lift I hope you don't mind I ask a question or 2 in here.
Ok, I have large calves...it is genetic. There are large calve on my Dad's side of the family...not just on the fat ones either lol.
My question is...is it possible to do exercises to make them smaller? My whole lower body is larger than my top...I am stocky I have naturally large muscles period, and that is great for building them unless they are too big already Even once I finish getting my bf down to where I want...the will still be large unless I can do SOMETHING! 
Ok, I have large calves...it is genetic. There are large calve on my Dad's side of the family...not just on the fat ones either lol.
My question is...is it possible to do exercises to make them smaller? My whole lower body is larger than my top...I am stocky
I have naturally large muscles period, and that is great for building them unless they are too big already Even once I finish getting my bf down to where I want...the will still be large unless I can do SOMETHING!
Dr. Pain
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I don't recommend it, but running makes them smaller.......
Not to argue, the same way grip width effects the "Feeling" of say a bench, press, pulldown, row, or upright row...so does position manipulation! So does foot position for that matter!
What we notice after training thousands of people, is the anatomical, and biomechanic differences amonst us.....tall people squat entirely differently, with a different center and "travel length" than "shorter people"...this dictates, bar placement, stance, width, ect.....
Same goes for other bodyparts....take L/E's for example (leg extentions) I dare almost all, to turn their toes out, and tell me that they don't feel more....medialis (anterior quad), versus toes in, more outter quad. I can watch my calves and toe placement, esp standing on claves (although bent body on a 45 vertical press)...and I can make the anterior huge during a rep with "toes out"...and I can "feel" the posterior tremendously more with toes in!
I'm not sayig this activates more or less fiber...altough I'm sure there are some EMG studies (I used to have that book) showing activation (like an incline curl causing more fiber and total arm (bicep and brachialis) to be employed than a standing curl....but I am saying that for a person who "Can't Feel" a contraction...alternating the Point of Flexion can help considerably!
DP
Not to argue, the same way grip width effects the "Feeling" of say a bench, press, pulldown, row, or upright row...so does position manipulation! So does foot position for that matter!
What we notice after training thousands of people, is the anatomical, and biomechanic differences amonst us.....tall people squat entirely differently, with a different center and "travel length" than "shorter people"...this dictates, bar placement, stance, width, ect.....
Same goes for other bodyparts....take L/E's for example (leg extentions) I dare almost all, to turn their toes out, and tell me that they don't feel more....medialis (anterior quad), versus toes in, more outter quad. I can watch my calves and toe placement, esp standing on claves (although bent body on a 45 vertical press)...and I can make the anterior huge during a rep with "toes out"...and I can "feel" the posterior tremendously more with toes in!
I'm not sayig this activates more or less fiber...altough I'm sure there are some EMG studies (I used to have that book) showing activation (like an incline curl causing more fiber and total arm (bicep and brachialis) to be employed than a standing curl....but I am saying that for a person who "Can't Feel" a contraction...alternating the Point of Flexion can help considerably!
DP
Dr. Pain
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Not enough time to research calves...quads were easier...
But first...on abs!
From T-mag.....
...and my point:
But first...on abs!
From T-mag.....
...and my point:
So you are saying that in a single muscle if you were to "emphasize" the motor units in one area of the muscle that part of the muscle will grow larger than the rest?
Or, does it make more sense that no matter where the motor units are recruited in a single muscle that the muscle will grow proportionaly as a whole.
If the former were true, we could change the shape of a muscle, which we all know that is impossible.
If you do seated calf raises you will work the Soleus, rather than the Gastrocnemius. The Soleus is not visible it lies underneath the Gastrocnemius. The Gastrocnemius is the visible part of the calves, it has two heads: medial and lateral. It attaches to the heel with the Achilles Tendon and originates behind the knee on the femur, crossing two joints.
If you look at the attached image you will see based on the tendon attachment regardless of foot/toe manipulation or position it would not make much difference in stimulating either the medial or lateral head. The only difference you can make is a seated calf raise versus a standing or a donkey.
The same is true for the quads (Vastus Medialis, Intermedius and Lateralis heads). Pointing your toes inward or outward on squats makes very little difference stimulating different heads in the quads because their tendon attachment point is so close together originating at the top of the femur. Not to mention you could put undue stress on the knee doing this, in it's ligaments, tendons, etc.
Or, does it make more sense that no matter where the motor units are recruited in a single muscle that the muscle will grow proportionaly as a whole.
If the former were true, we could change the shape of a muscle, which we all know that is impossible.
If you do seated calf raises you will work the Soleus, rather than the Gastrocnemius. The Soleus is not visible it lies underneath the Gastrocnemius. The Gastrocnemius is the visible part of the calves, it has two heads: medial and lateral. It attaches to the heel with the Achilles Tendon and originates behind the knee on the femur, crossing two joints.
If you look at the attached image you will see based on the tendon attachment regardless of foot/toe manipulation or position it would not make much difference in stimulating either the medial or lateral head. The only difference you can make is a seated calf raise versus a standing or a donkey.
The same is true for the quads (Vastus Medialis, Intermedius and Lateralis heads). Pointing your toes inward or outward on squats makes very little difference stimulating different heads in the quads because their tendon attachment point is so close together originating at the top of the femur. Not to mention you could put undue stress on the knee doing this, in it's ligaments, tendons, etc.
Dr. Pain
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Prince, sometimes I fear that we speak different languages....
There is a difference in Changing the shape of a Muscle which you belive cannot be done..and I am not contesting here, (although that is more of a semantical debate), and helping it reach it's gentetic potential. There is more than hypetrohpy involved. There is connective tissue, tendons and ligaments, that must be strengthened before maximal loads can occur. So if a "point of flexion" triggers more "motor" units, as demonstrated by EMG studies, at maximal or submaximal loads, doesn't it make sense to use it? For instance, I can relieve chrondomalacia in less than a week simply by emphasizing the vastus medialis in a POF using a "terminal extension"....if you have a good tool, then useit?
The question here was "How to Feel the Contraction"...something that many trainees take a lifetime, or more to learn...I am simply supplying the shortcut. I can't tell you how many times somebody says. "I never 'feel' this or that exercise...I simply show them how to "feel" it! (often times it is grip, stance, angle, etc, POF's)
Your quote concerns "Stress", my contention would be that BB is a STRESS/Adaptaion Process!
As for the gastrocs and soleus statement, why I said to do both seated and standing in the first place....
DP
There is a difference in Changing the shape of a Muscle which you belive cannot be done..and I am not contesting here, (although that is more of a semantical debate), and helping it reach it's gentetic potential. There is more than hypetrohpy involved. There is connective tissue, tendons and ligaments, that must be strengthened before maximal loads can occur. So if a "point of flexion" triggers more "motor" units, as demonstrated by EMG studies, at maximal or submaximal loads, doesn't it make sense to use it? For instance, I can relieve chrondomalacia in less than a week simply by emphasizing the vastus medialis in a POF using a "terminal extension"....if you have a good tool, then useit?
The question here was "How to Feel the Contraction"...something that many trainees take a lifetime, or more to learn...I am simply supplying the shortcut. I can't tell you how many times somebody says. "I never 'feel' this or that exercise...I simply show them how to "feel" it!
(often times it is grip, stance, angle, etc, POF's)Your quote concerns "Stress", my contention would be that BB is a STRESS/Adaptaion Process!
As for the gastrocs and soleus statement, why I said to do both seated and standing in the first place....
DP
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Okay, I did not read your studies before, just now read them.
They have nothing to do with what we're talking about in this thread.
The first quote is just stating that different types of crunches are more effective, so what? It does not say that you can stimulate and cause growth in the lower, middle and upper abs, that was our orignal argument you made in another thread. Either way, it does not even pertain to this thread.
The second quote is a study on hamstrings, again we're not talking about hamstrings here. However, it would make sense that tibia rotation would stimulate the hamstrings differently cause their tendon attachments do NOT originate on the same side of the tibia! You cannot comare this muscle group to the calves and quads, in which their tendon attachments are in almost the exact same spot on the tibia and the heel via the achilies tendon.
Your last quote is a study that used the leg extension machine, first of all I said squats, but okay. The study was about hip flexion, not tibia rotatation, so I do not see the relevance of that one either.
You failed to even address what I am saying about toe position and how it really cannot effect the stimulation of the different heads in muscle groups of the calves or quads. And this was the orginal debate at hand, so we're not speaking different languages, you're just changing the context of our debate and talking about different muscle groups and different exercises all together.
All you have to do is look at the images, examine how close all of the tendons attach and logically conclude that it's nearly impossible to hit the heads separately by moving your toes in or out on the calves and quads.
They have nothing to do with what we're talking about in this thread.
The first quote is just stating that different types of crunches are more effective, so what? It does not say that you can stimulate and cause growth in the lower, middle and upper abs, that was our orignal argument you made in another thread. Either way, it does not even pertain to this thread.
The second quote is a study on hamstrings, again we're not talking about hamstrings here. However, it would make sense that tibia rotation would stimulate the hamstrings differently cause their tendon attachments do NOT originate on the same side of the tibia! You cannot comare this muscle group to the calves and quads, in which their tendon attachments are in almost the exact same spot on the tibia and the heel via the achilies tendon.
Your last quote is a study that used the leg extension machine, first of all I said squats, but okay. The study was about hip flexion, not tibia rotatation, so I do not see the relevance of that one either.
You failed to even address what I am saying about toe position and how it really cannot effect the stimulation of the different heads in muscle groups of the calves or quads. And this was the orginal debate at hand, so we're not speaking different languages, you're just changing the context of our debate and talking about different muscle groups and different exercises all together.
All you have to do is look at the images, examine how close all of the tendons attach and logically conclude that it's nearly impossible to hit the heads separately by moving your toes in or out on the calves and quads.
Dr. Pain
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Last post from me, as you are not seeing how the points/studies relate to POF which you are dismissing....
Concerning the calves, there are similar EMG studies, demostrating that plantar, and patella orientation/position activate/trigger muscle fiber differently....my pount was about POF's and contraction, nothing more...the ab/quad information emphaize that INDIRECTLY.......
DP
Concerning the calves, there are similar EMG studies, demostrating that plantar, and patella orientation/position activate/trigger muscle fiber differently....my pount was about POF's and contraction, nothing more...the ab/quad information emphaize that INDIRECTLY.......
DP
I did not dismiss the studies. That would mean that I rejected them, which I did not.
I just explained how those particular studies were not applicable to our argument at hand, which you're now changing.
Dr. Pain
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Same point....
Originally posted by Dr. Pain
I don't recommend it, but running makes them smaller.......
Then what can I do? I know that no one here advocates running and I understand why. I want to keep my muscle everywhere BUT my calves. Are you telling me I am SOL???
Dr. Pain
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No...I'll let prince tell you....j/k
It's a hard bodypart to reduce. it does shrink as you do.....also depends on the composition
DP
It's a hard bodypart to reduce. it does shrink as you do.....also depends on the composition
DP
Originally posted by Dr. Pain
No...I'll let prince tell you....j/k
It's a hard bodypart to reduce. it does shrink as you do.....also depends on the composition
DP
Should I not go heavier and heavier on my calf exercises? Just work them at low weight and high reps?
Either do not work your calves, or make sure that you only use light weight/high reps.
If you do cardio, as in running, walking,etc., that is enough work, but the calves are high in red fiber, and if you do a lot of walking/running it can build them even bigger.
I have seen skinny marathon runners with calves that many bodybuilders wish they had!
If you do cardio, as in running, walking,etc., that is enough work, but the calves are high in red fiber, and if you do a lot of walking/running it can build them even bigger.
I have seen skinny marathon runners with calves that many bodybuilders wish they had!
Originally posted by buff_tat2d_chick
Then what can I do? I know that no one here advocates running and I understand why. I want to keep my muscle everywhere BUT my calves. Are you telling me I am SOL???
why no running? i dont do it (cause it sucks & i dont need it) but when i cut id prob do some sprints a lil.
is there something wrong w/running?
I got the impression dr pain was saying that doing the exercise one way put more emphasis on a particular muscle, causing it to get used more during an exercise and causing it to grow more, that was before all the crazy jibba jabba about POF and EMG and other really long technical posts, am I right or wrong (for the sake of us neanderthals who don't use 4 syllable words very often).
My impression was that DP was stating that toe position (in or out) would "emphasize" the lateral & medial heads (calf muscles) differently, then he sort of changed everything and in my opinion changed the context of our debate.
I stand by what I said about quads and calves, if you read my posts and look at the images I attached you will see that it's quite clear that with the quads and calves the tendon attachment points are so close it's nearly impossible to stress the heads differently by changing toe position.
The only thing that he posted (which was unrelated to this thread) was that the hamstrings can be emphasized by tibia rotation, which I agreeed with because the tendon attachments are on opposite sides of the tibia. (see image)
Dr. Pain
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I will now have to post the plantar alignemt EMG studies on fiber activation when I find time....lol
The answer above was YES!
DP
The answer above was YES!
DP
I have to agree with DP here regarding toe placement. I always feel it in different areas depending on toe position.
Yeah, and when I do incline bench press I "feel" it in my upper chest, that must mean my upper chest is going to grow disproportionally to my lower, even though it's the same muscle.
Yes, sir I am.
(and yes this is a change of opinion for me in the last year, I used to argue the opposite!)
The pectorial major is a single muscle, and it will grow proportionally no matter how it's worked.
If it were possible to make one portion of a muscle grow larger, then that would mean it's possible to change the shape of a muscle, and that is impossible.
Now, hitting a muscle at a different angle may cause hypertrophy, especially if it's a new angle, but the muscle will still grow equally. Thus, you cannot make the upper pectorial region grow without the rest of the pectorial growing along with it.
So, I am not saying do not do inclines, cause you may benefit, but do not think that inclines, declines or flat will cause the pecs to grow in different areas. In fact, I would advocate that you did use all three angles for maximum stimulation and growth of your pecs.
Personally, I do very little incline work these days because of the shoulder stress it causes.
Hey what's wrong with running, other than it sucks and I don't do other than when someone REALLY big is chasing me.
Prince, I'm having a hardtime completely understanding your arguement. Bear with me for a minute.
Take the deltoid for example. Many people have a better development of the front and lateral portions of the deltoid, but they lack rear deltoid development. If I were to do military presses, it's common belief that they directly work the frontal deltoid with some lateral development and lastly the rear development. In your opinion it could not directly work, or emphasize, the frontal development, but why does the front deltoid grow more as opposed to the rear?
If you're talking about different angles being placed on the muscle to cause hypertrophy, isn't this directly affecting the muscle in a given place? I agree that the rest of the muscle will also grow, but not as directly as if you were to do....bent over lateral raises for the rear delt.
I'm not here for the sake of arguement, but I'm not seeing the whole picture from your view.
Take the deltoid for example. Many people have a better development of the front and lateral portions of the deltoid, but they lack rear deltoid development. If I were to do military presses, it's common belief that they directly work the frontal deltoid with some lateral development and lastly the rear development. In your opinion it could not directly work, or emphasize, the frontal development, but why does the front deltoid grow more as opposed to the rear?
If you're talking about different angles being placed on the muscle to cause hypertrophy, isn't this directly affecting the muscle in a given place? I agree that the rest of the muscle will also grow, but not as directly as if you were to do....bent over lateral raises for the rear delt.
I'm not here for the sake of arguement, but I'm not seeing the whole picture from your view.