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46and2
10-29-2013, 08:48 AM
So I got my tests back. They only tested total and free test despite me asking for LH, FSH, etc.

Total: 284 ng/dl Range: 175 - 781 (range for an 85 year old man maybe)
Free: 0.26 nmol/L Range: 0.11 - 0.66 (7.49 ng/dl)

The nurse said it's "low but normal" and no follow-up needed. Needless to say it was a waste of time. So I guess my next step is a full blood panel.

oufinny
10-29-2013, 08:51 AM
Oh the nurse said that, as if she is qualified to make medical decisions. Take those to an endo or your doctor and if you get blown off, find one that will listen. I'm sorry man those levels are low, must feel like crap.

46and2
10-29-2013, 08:55 AM
Well this is from a urologist office and supposedly he "signed off" on the results, which is why she is reporting no follow up. I do feel like shit most days but now I know why. My wife will be thrilled once this is sorted out. She has a way higher sex drive and thought I didn't find her attractive any more!

oufinny
10-29-2013, 09:13 AM
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/testosterone-replacement-therapy/177959-top-2-online-trt-clinics.html

Some good info in here, contact some of the guys if you have questions. There is a clinic for everyone's budget, I have been looking for a friend of mine because his wife just wants it all legal with his kids being at the home. I think you can find just what you are looking for it may take some time though. It's sad how these doctors just want people to suffer then wonder why later in life they have heart attacks, terrible cholesterol, are overweight, get diabetes, bad bone density, the list is so long is disgusting.

independent
10-29-2013, 10:57 AM
Well this is from a urologist office and supposedly he "signed off" on the results, which is why she is reporting no follow up. I do feel like shit most days but now I know why. My wife will be thrilled once this is sorted out. She has a way higher sex drive and thought I didn't find her attractive any more!

Find a clinic or do it yourself. Pm me if you have any questions.

46and2
11-06-2013, 07:03 PM
Ok so I talked to a clinic to see what they had to say. My new blood tests were interesting:

Total Test 399 ng/dL 348-1197

Free Test (Direct) 11.2 pg/mL 8.7-25.1

TSH 2.270 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500

LH 4.7 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6

E2 23.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

PSA 0.6 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Total Cholesterol 270 mg/dL 100-199

HDL 51 mg/dL >39

LDL 191 mg/dL 0-99

Trig 139 mg/dL 0-149

VLDL Cholesterol 28 mg/dL 5-40

So a couple of things jump out at me. First is the 110 point jump in total test, although I guess that could be caused by the testers since the ranges are different? Second is the cholesterol numbers. Holy crap they look bad to me. I'm not overweight, I weight train and do BJJ, all my fats come from fish oil, nuts/seeds, and lean meat. My parents both have/had high cholesterol and took medication for it, so it may be genetic. I'm talking with the new doc tomorrow but I am really concerned about the cholesterol numbers. Any thoughts on lowering that naturally without statins?

oufinny
11-06-2013, 07:11 PM
Low test has a direct correlation to high cholesterol; it's a side effect. That alone would make a learned physician approve some form of treatment to see if it reverses the high cholesterol. Test is made from cholesterol, less test, more cholesterol as it's the base of your sex hormones. That's a very over simplification but it's how it was best explained to me.

flood
11-06-2013, 07:14 PM
They allow a higher HDL when your LDL is very good - like yours (from my Dr last visit).
It's genetic, I'm told.
Total test jumps around a bit. Was higher value tested early in the morning?

46and2
11-06-2013, 07:19 PM
They allow a higher HDL when your LDL is very good - like yours (from my Dr last visit).
It's genetic, I'm told.
Total test jumps around a bit. Was higher value tested early in the morning?

Higher test value was tested 3-4 in the afternoon. This recent one was done at 1 PM. 5 months ago my HDL was 41, LDL 127, Trig was 190. No idea what's going on here lol.

OfficerFarva
11-06-2013, 07:39 PM
Low test has a direct correlation to high cholesterol; it's a side effect. That alone would make a learned physician approve some form of treatment to see if it reverses the high cholesterol. Test is made from cholesterol, less test, more cholesterol as it's the base of your sex hormones. That's a very over simplification but it's how it was best explained to me.

The precursor to all vertebrate steroid hormones is cholesterol :)

OfficerFarva
11-06-2013, 07:40 PM
So I got my tests back. They only tested total and free test despite me asking for LH, FSH, etc.

Total: 284 ng/dl Range: 175 - 781 (range for an 85 year old man maybe)
Free: 0.26 nmol/L Range: 0.11 - 0.66 (7.49 ng/dl)

The nurse said it's "low but normal" and no follow-up needed. Needless to say it was a waste of time. So I guess my next step is a full blood panel.


I know what that's like. In my early 20's my levels came back similar to yours, if not lower, and my GP said that it's fine because it's still within the reference range...

flood
11-06-2013, 08:10 PM
Higher test value was tested 3-4 in the afternoon. This recent one was done at 1 PM. 5 months ago my HDL was 41, LDL 127, Trig was 190. No idea what's going on here lol.
It's frustrating isn't it? You pay the professionals good ching to sort this all out, and...

Have you looked into the online TRT clinics? I wonder if there are cheaper ones popping up yet. Presser here has one he uses. Full BW is fairly cheap but may want to just toss that amount into a sure thing that really WILL handle it all for you. It's a helluva balancing act to figure out, it seems.

bulldogz
11-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Higher test value was tested 3-4 in the afternoon. This recent one was done at 1 PM. 5 months ago my HDL was 41, LDL 127, Trig was 190. No idea what's going on here lol.

Usually bloodwork for these test are done early morning when you first wake up type of thing, in the afternoon or late afternoon it can fluctuate and have different readings


I know what that's like. In my early 20's my levels came back similar to yours, if not lower, and my GP said that it's fine because it's still within the reference range...

I heard this for years from my primary...kept telling him I'm always tired, no libido and what not for a few years even tho it was within "range"...until they finally sent me to a urologist but before the specialist did their own bloodwork I pinned 50mg of deca a few days before...now I am legal persay (sort of)...lol...but fuck some of these docs

46and2
11-07-2013, 06:06 AM
It's frustrating isn't it? You pay the professionals good ching to sort this all out, and...

Have you looked into the online TRT clinics? I wonder if there are cheaper ones popping up yet. Presser here has one he uses. Full BW is fairly cheap but may want to just toss that amount into a sure thing that really WILL handle it all for you. It's a helluva balancing act to figure out, it seems.

This is through an online clinic ironically. I have an appointment with the doc this AM to sort it out.

46and2
11-07-2013, 09:03 AM
So the doc and I talked and we are going to try and boost me using Clomid. He's also prescribing adex at .25mg once a week. I'm excited and hopeful that this will help me out and get me to an optimum level and feeling good again.

flood
11-07-2013, 04:32 PM
Well I can toss in this cut&paste from a good article on AI & SERMs;

"Comid: Usually dosed from 25-300 mgs depending on the desired effect, is both effective during a cycle for estrogen sides and post cycle for support of natural Testosterone levels. While it has been claimed that Clomid "stimulates" production of LH and therefore of testosterone, in fact Clomid's activity is achieved not by stimulation of the hypothalamus and pituitary, but by blocking their inhibition by estrogen.

Clomid is a mixed estrogen aganoist/antagonist (activator/blocker) which, when bound to the estrogen receptor, puts it in a somewhat different conformation (shape) than does estradiol. The estrogen receptor requires binding of an estrogen or drug at its binding site and also the binding of any of several cofactors at different sites. Without the binding of the cofactor, the estrogen receptor is inactive.

Different tissues use different cofactors. Some of these cofactors are able to bind to the estrogen receptor/Clomid complex, but others are blocked due to the change in shape. The result is that in some tissues Clomid acts as an antagonist -- the cofactor used in that tissue cannot bind and so the receptor remains inactive -- and in others Clomid acts as an agonist (activator), because the cofactors used in that tissue are able to bind. Clomid is an effective antagonist in the hypothalamus and in breast tissue. It is an effective agonist in bone tissue, and for improving blood cholesterol.

Clomid also has the property of reducing the adverse effect of exercise-induced damage of muscle tissue. This is very significant for endurance athletes but is not very significant, if at all significant, with reasonable weight training. Clomid does not perceptibly affect gains of the weight trainer either favorably or adversely in my experience.

It should also be noted that Clomid seems to have estrogenic effects on mood, causing some slight depression or moddiness. It can also effect eyesight by causing it to seem blurry. No this isn't from crying while listening to James Blunt CD's. LOL"

and...

"Arimidex: A-dex, seems to be the aromatase inhibitor of choice. Usually doesed from 0.25 - 3.0 mg it is effective even when not used every day. 0.5mgs per day can get rid of up to 50% estrogen."

TESTOSTERONE NATION | SERM and AI Sticky - Page 1 (http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/serm_and_ai_sticky)

independent
11-07-2013, 05:21 PM
So the doc and I talked and we are going to try and boost me using Clomid. He's also prescribing adex at .25mg once a week. I'm excited and hopeful that this will help me out and get me to an optimum level and feeling good again.


No and no.

flood
11-07-2013, 05:27 PM
Your E2 is good. Does he want to kill your Estradiol instead of boosting T? We need some Estrogen.

46and2
11-07-2013, 05:50 PM
No and no.

Haha, at least you're confident! But seriously I am going along in hopes that it will work. I mean for the record it's not like I have a hard on for going on TRT. I'm willing to do it to get my quality of life back but it's not like I WANT to spend the money, do the injections, get the bloodwork, etc. I'd much rather be able to produce on my own.

46and2
11-07-2013, 05:51 PM
Your E2 is good. Does he want to kill your Estradiol instead of boosting T? We need some Estrogen.

I was happy to see such a good E2. I think he wanted to keep E2 in check in case I respond well to the Clomid. I think .25 once a week is a pretty low dosage isn't it?

independent
11-07-2013, 06:38 PM
Haha, at least you're confident! But seriously I am going along in hopes that it will work. I mean for the record it's not like I have a hard on for going on TRT. I'm willing to do it to get my quality of life back but it's not like I WANT to spend the money, do the injections, get the bloodwork, etc. I'd much rather be able to produce on my own.

If hes just trying to kickstart your pituitary fine, but using clomid long term I dont think its a good idea. The stuff make you feel like shit. I didnt want to go on trt either but i do feel much better now and doing one injection per wek isnt a big deal.

46and2
11-07-2013, 06:45 PM
If hes just trying to kickstart your pituitary fine, but using clomid long term I dont think its a good idea. The stuff make you feel like shit. I didnt want to go on trt either but i do feel much better now and doing one injection per wek isnt a big deal.

Ah yeah that's a good point I didn't mention. We are going to run Clomid for 30 days and check bloods. If I respond well we are going to taper off and check bloods again to see if it worked. If not we are going to TRT. The most I'll run Clomid is 30 days and then taper off over a couple of weeks.

independent
11-07-2013, 07:41 PM
Ah yeah that's a good point I didn't mention. We are going to run Clomid for 30 days and check bloods. If I respond well we are going to taper off and check bloods again to see if it worked. If not we are going to TRT. The most I'll run Clomid is 30 days and then taper off over a couple of weeks.

Your bloods should look good after 30 days. Most likely it wont stay that way, maybe you will get lucky but you have low test for a reason, age and genetics.

s2h
11-07-2013, 08:08 PM
So the doc and I talked and we are going to try and boost me using Clomid. He's also prescribing adex at .25mg once a week. I'm excited and hopeful that this will help me out and get me to an optimum level and feeling good again.

your gonna feel great for a week or two..and then like hammered dog do-do...i would at min ask for axiron or even a gel...

s2h
11-07-2013, 08:10 PM
I was happy to see such a good E2. I think he wanted to keep E2 in check in case I respond well to the Clomid. I think .25 once a week is a pretty low dosage isn't it?

.25 ew of adex is worthless..would love to hear his reasoning behind that..

46and2
11-08-2013, 06:24 AM
Haha, man I'm starting to question the decision to go this route. I'm still going to run the protocol as per the doctor's orders but I am prepared to go on TRT after this. I will not do a cream or a gel. I teach little kids BJJ and I am too afraid of transferrance. Not to mention I train very often and shower 2-3 times a day. It will be injections for sure. My only guess in the adex is if for some reason my test spikes on Clomid it will keep E2 from going apeshit? Seems kinda low to me too.

independent
11-08-2013, 09:04 AM
.25 ew of adex is worthless..would love to hear his reasoning behind that..

Me too.

46and2
11-08-2013, 12:44 PM
Yeah everything I am reading says the adex will not be necessary for this, nor would it be particularly effective at this dosage. Should I even take it then? My E2 is about ideal right now and I don't want to fuck up another hormone.

independent
11-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Yeah everything I am reading says the adex will not be necessary for this, nor would it be particularly effective at this dosage. Should I even take it then? My E2 is about ideal right now and I don't want to fuck up another hormone.

Well you need something since your e2 is gonna go up on clomid. Problem with adex is it just binds to the aromatase enzyme and when you stop using it theres a possibility of estrogen rebound. Thats why people use aromasin, its a suicidal inhibitor and kills the aromatase enzyme so theres no rebound. The dose hes giving you will do nothing. You are better off running a proper pct protocol than wasting your time and money with this doctor, trust me. You could do it for under 50.00.

46and2
11-08-2013, 01:53 PM
Well you need something since your e2 is gonna go up on clomid. Problem with adex is it just binds to the aromatase enzyme and when you stop using it theres a possibility of estrogen rebound. Thats why people use aromasin, its a suicidal inhibitor and kills the aromatase enzyme so theres no rebound. The dose hes giving you will do nothing. You are better off running a proper pct protocol than wasting your time and money with this doctor, trust me. You could do it for under 50.00.

Believe me, the urge to self-prescribe has been huge. If it weren't for the high-scrutiny career field I am in I would do so. I just cannot risk any sort of record. I'm beginning to worry the next 30 days will be a waste of time and a bit of money. I guess the upside would be that I can go to TRT if (when) this fails. I've talked to him about that and we'll be prepared for it.

And thank you guys. You have given me more to think about and more to go back to the doctor with. I've learned quite a bit here already.

46and2
11-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Got my first dosage of Clomid (50mg) in today. I'm pretty pessimistic at this point but still holding a bit of hope. Any idea when I would expect to feel anything, good or bad, assuming it works?

46and2
11-21-2013, 06:02 AM
Just a quick update. Today is day 9 of 50mg ED. About 7-8 days ago I noticed an uptick in mood WHEN everything is "ok". This was obviously too soon for Clomid so I assumed it was due to our house selling quickly. If anything goes wrong or annoys me, I get agitated very quickly, yell, etc. Within 5-15 minutes after that, I feel sad that I did that. My wife asked if I was having a man period lol. Still zero gym motivation, sex drive, work motivation, etc.

independent
11-21-2013, 09:38 AM
Just a quick update. Today is day 9 of 50mg ED. About 7-8 days ago I noticed an uptick in mood WHEN everything is "ok". This was obviously too soon for Clomid so I assumed it was due to our house selling quickly. If anything goes wrong or annoys me, I get agitated very quickly, yell, etc. Within 5-15 minutes after that, I feel sad that I did that. My wife asked if I was having a man period lol. Still zero gym motivation, sex drive, work motivation, etc.

Sounds like the clomid is working. Thats how it makes you feel.

46and2
11-21-2013, 11:50 AM
Sounds like the clomid is working. Thats how it makes you feel.

Alright good to know. I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm still hopeful that it will work long-term.

heavyiron
11-21-2013, 12:23 PM
LDL looks bad. Might consider upping your fiber intake and cardio brother.

46and2
11-21-2013, 01:52 PM
LDL looks bad. Might consider upping your fiber intake and cardio brother.

LDL is very bad. I've already made some diet changes with more fiber and I will be adding cardio. Tough to do with my lack o' motivation right now but I gotta do it. :(

heavyiron
11-21-2013, 05:21 PM
Yeah, been there myself except my Total T was 77 ng/dl AFTER a Clomid restart. LOL!

46and2
11-21-2013, 06:02 PM
Yeah, been there myself except my Total T was 77 ng/dl AFTER a Clomid restart. LOL!

Damn! I can't imagine how bad you felt then. I felt like shit up until this week so yours must have been terrible. I assume you're much better now though?

heavyiron
11-21-2013, 06:09 PM
It was hell, I felt zero drive for sex and was tired and would fall asleep on the couch after work. My mood was depressed as well. 1 day after my Testosterone inject I felt normal again. I will never go off again. My sex drive is like a 19 year old and I'm WAY older than that. Anyway, I'm going to go take my inject right now. Its been a week since my last shot.

46and2
11-29-2013, 07:59 PM
Just a quick update. I am due for my blood test late next week. I actually did a strength workout yesterday for the first time in 2+ weeks. Mostly I have only been able to keep training BJJ and I am too tired to do anything else. Sex with the wife (to keep her happy) is like going through the motions. I'm not really emotional or quick to anger like I briefly was. I feel almost like a zombie. I wake up, go to work, train BJJ, eat, work, home, sleep and repeat. No energy, no passion, no caring about anything or anyone really. My daughter and wife seem like the only bright spots in what should be a great life but I just don't feel it. On the plus side I did roll very well this week at BJJ so at least that is still going well. Time to end the whiny emo post. :D

46and2
12-06-2013, 08:16 AM
Man, waiting for blood test results sucks. Last time I had the results in 2 days. I really don't feel like the Clomid helped though. :(

46and2
12-06-2013, 11:36 AM
Got my labs back today. I am a bit surprised at the numbers:

Testosterone, Serum: 1195 ng/dl 348-1197
Free Testosterone (Direct): 33.7 pg/mL 8.7-25.1 (HIGH)
LH: 11.9 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6 (HIGH)
Estradiol: 57.1 pg/mL 7.2-42.6 (HIGH)

So it appears I responded well to the Clomid. My E2 is high, but I have read you cannot accurately test E2 while on Clomid. If that is false, then I guess I needed a bit more than .25mg adex a week. So I am scheduling an appointment with the doctor next week to go over the results. My guess is we will ween me off of the Clomid and then retest after a while to see where my levels stand.

flood
12-06-2013, 03:11 PM
Looks great, grats. You feel better?

46and2
12-06-2013, 03:35 PM
Looks great, grats. You feel better?

Not a single bit better. Still have to force myself to workout twice a week, still don't want to bone my wife, still hit snooze 3 times before getting up. Something else has to be in play here.

46and2
12-08-2013, 07:00 PM
So a weird update. Today was the best day I've had in forever. Did 1/2 of my strength training in the morning, took the wife and kid to a big hill to go sledding, rolled at BJJ for an hour, didn't get pissed when my boss emailed me about a problem, finished the second half of strength training, and I STILL feel like rolling or lifting or doing something. Never griped or snapped at my wife either. I'm starting my taper but it's probably too soon for that right?

46and2
12-21-2013, 07:41 AM
Ok so just a quick update. My doctor is beginning to taper me off the Clomid. Since my E2 more than doubled we moved to 0.5mg anastrazole per week. I still feel pretty good, although I am a bit tired in the evenings. BJJ is going great, I am choking and hanging with guys that are half my age and 30-45 pounds heavier than me (i.e. what BJJ is supposed to do!). I have morning and nighttime wood, and last night I surprised my wife by banging her in the shower on a whim. Motivation to train is through the roof. Life is good right now, I hope once I taper off completely that I can keep producing on my own.

independent
12-21-2013, 07:47 AM
Ok so just a quick update. My doctor is beginning to taper me off the Clomid. Since my E2 more than doubled we moved to 0.5mg anastrazole per week. I still feel pretty good, although I am a bit tired in the evenings. BJJ is going great, I am choking and hanging with guys that are half my age and 30-45 pounds heavier than me (i.e. what BJJ is supposed to do!). I have morning and nighttime wood, and last night I surprised my wife by banging her in the shower on a whim. Motivation to train is through the roof. Life is good right now, I hope once I taper off completely that I can keep producing on my own.

I hope the best for you.

flood
12-22-2013, 11:13 PM
I went to a TRT clinic and it was the best thing I could've done. The Dr there is checking everything -and at a frequency that seems a lot safer, unlike the endo's office.
I feel better already. The TRT clinic is covered by insurance 85% and is 100% legal & medically safe.

newmass
12-26-2013, 07:42 PM
PM me I can give you the name of a clinic that will work for you

newmass
12-26-2013, 07:44 PM
your insurance covers visits/and meds?

46and2
12-28-2013, 02:28 PM
I wish my insurance covered my clinic. :(

Acheron
01-04-2014, 06:43 AM
I heard this for years from my primary...kept telling him I'm always tired, no libido and what not for a few years even tho it was within "range"

This is where I'm at now and it's frustrating as hell. My readings were slightly below normal and my docs advice was to get some DHEA. I paid for 3 office visits and 4 blood tests just to be told: You're fine, go home. I eat well, exercise religiously and yet I feel like shit so no, I'm not fine. Now I'm on the hunt for a new primary and a doc who will actually listen to me and help me feel healthy again.

Lost Grizzly
01-04-2014, 10:19 AM
I complained to my GP for 3 years in a row. He did blood work twice checking my T and said I was fine. I am 44 now and have been on TRT for 2 months now and feel great. I had to change Dr to get my script filled. The new Dr did blood work and my T lvl was a bit higher than what my last Dr was testing and I still got a script. The reason is my new Dr has a clue and my old Dr was not going to consider TRT at all no matter what my numbers were.

Originally my number was 408 and new Dr tested me at 450 and gave me a script for 1ml every 2 weeks. I cut my dose in half and do .5 per week. New Dr said most of his clients were happy injecting every 2 weeks, but if I wanted I could change it to weekly.

Everyone is different and with my original numbers starting at 408-450 would be great for most, but sucked for me. I am not sure where my numbers are at now doing .5 per week, but will know in 2 months when I return for my blood work and a new script.

So far everything has increased for me that I complained about.
Libido, energy, strength, cardio and my sleep is better. I have also gained 10lbs over the past 2 months.

s2h
01-04-2014, 12:31 PM
clomid is a two fold drug...it inhibits estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus and stunts the negative feedback loop to the pituitary...but its doesn't effect certain parts of the hypothalamus and pituitary...along with increasing GnRH release from the pituitary that increases the LH and FSH hence natural test production...

So it actually works against itself in some way...clomid has a long half life..its like 6 days and adex is about 2 days...so .25mg od adex once a week is totally worthless in a sense..

did he use a computer in front of him too give these prescribing guidelines??..a lot of these Dr's do and many have dated of insufficient software that has any sound dosing protocols...

s2h
01-04-2014, 12:39 PM
This is where I'm at now and it's frustrating as hell. My readings were slightly below normal and my docs advice was to get some DHEA. I paid for 3 office visits and 4 blood tests just to be told: You're fine, go home. I eat well, exercise religiously and yet I feel like shit so no, I'm not fine. Now I'm on the hunt for a new primary and a doc who will actually listen to me and help me feel healthy again.

DHEA is worthless for men...it does impact females but not males....there are plenty of HRT docs around...issue is most dont take insurance and there expensive...there are some(like mine)who do take insurance but only take true HRT patients..there out there just gotta look..

Find a compound pharm in your area and ask them who the doctors are sending them HRT related customers...then you will know who to see...a lot of the pharms will recommend a doctor that fits your needs..

Acheron
01-05-2014, 03:13 PM
DHEA is worthless for men...it does impact females but not males....there are plenty of HRT docs around...issue is most dont take insurance and there expensive...there are some(like mine)who do take insurance but only take true HRT patients..there out there just gotta look..

Find a compound pharm in your area and ask them who the doctors are sending them HRT related customers...then you will know who to see...a lot of the pharms will recommend a doctor that fits your needs..

Yeah I did some research on DHEA long before I ever even went to the doc and studies showed a maximum of a 20% improvement under ideal conditions and in most cases, far less. I am actually one of those individuals who has a legitimate need as my total and free T are both below normal limits (my total was 263 I believe). I contacted the two local compounding pharmacies as per your suggestion and am just awaiting a response.

Erik Lunburg

46and2
01-28-2014, 08:03 AM
Still tapering off clomid. Recently I started feeling like I did before clomid - tired, unmotivated, forgetful. :( I got my bloods drawn yesterday so we'll see how that goes.

independent
01-28-2014, 09:29 AM
Still tapering off clomid. Recently I started feeling like I did before clomid - tired, unmotivated, forgetful. :( I got my bloods drawn yesterday so we'll see how that goes.

If youre still on clomid your total test will probably be in the normal range. You need labs at least 6 weeks after discontinuing the clomid.

j2048b
01-28-2014, 02:16 PM
If youre still on clomid your total test will probably be in the normal range. You need labs at least 6 weeks after discontinuing the clomid.

Yup truth^^^^


Sent from my iPP using Tapatrash

46and2
01-28-2014, 06:44 PM
If youre still on clomid your total test will probably be in the normal range. You need labs at least 6 weeks after discontinuing the clomid.

Big "duh" moment right there. I knew that and apparently forgot it. Something odd is going on though. Not sure what it is.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bigmoe65 again.

independent
01-28-2014, 06:48 PM
Big "duh" moment right there. I knew that and apparently forgot it. Something odd is going on though. Not sure what it is.

Could be high estro possibly.

46and2
01-28-2014, 06:55 PM
Could be high estro possibly.

For sure. Last time my E2 was 57, up from a 23 baseline. So he upped the adex from a worthless (as per this thread :D) .25mg/week to .5mg/week. I take it Monday and Thursday.

independent
01-28-2014, 07:04 PM
Whats your next step after the clomid?

46and2
01-28-2014, 07:39 PM
Whats your next step after the clomid?

Well I'm not 100% sure. I have an appointment with the doc in a week or so. I am assuming we'll finish the taper and check bloods after that. If I fall back to about where I was then he said we are doing injections.

46and2
01-29-2014, 11:17 AM
Wow. Results are in.

Testosterone, Serum - 1258 High ng/dL 348-1197
Free Testosterone, Direct - 23.4 pg/mL 8.7-25.1
LH - 10.1 High mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
Estradiol - 67.8 High pg/mL 7.6-42.6

bigmoe was spot on about the estradiol. That's pretty high. On another good note, my total cholesterol is down to 183, and LDL is down to 119. It was much, much higher just a few months ago.

independent
01-29-2014, 12:21 PM
If youre coming off the clomid i wouldnt do anything at this point. As you come off the clomid your e2 will drop. Its a wait and see until you get labs again, just wait at least 6 weeks post clomid.

46and2
01-29-2014, 03:16 PM
If youre coming off the clomid i wouldnt do anything at this point. As you come off the clomid your e2 will drop. Its a wait and see until you get labs again, just wait at least 6 weeks post clomid.

I'm wondering if he'll up my adex to 0.75 or 1 mg/week. Not sure if that is a good idea or not but the thought of him doing that crossed my mind.

independent
01-29-2014, 06:54 PM
I'm wondering if he'll up my adex to 0.75 or 1 mg/week. Not sure if that is a good idea or not but the thought of him doing that crossed my mind.

You could do that for now to get e2 in check, but as you come off the clomid you will need to stop the adex anyways.

46and2
02-05-2014, 01:04 PM
So I think it's the high E2, or maybe my imagination, but by nipples seem a little sensitive. I've tried calling my clinic because my prescription is going to run out before my DR appointment later this month. So far, twice I have been told they would "send the doctor a message" to see what he wants to do. So far, twice they have failed to call me back. I've already ordered more adex on my own to bump up and try and get this E2 under control. I'm not terribly happy with the wait for the Dr appointment, or the run-around I've been getting on my prescription. :(

independent
02-05-2014, 03:35 PM
You need a new doc.

46and2
02-05-2014, 05:26 PM
You need a new doc.


Working on that too. This sucks!

zdudezdud
02-06-2014, 09:58 AM
You need a new doc.
Agree with more your doc is shotgun approach. He/she is all over the place. Ai 1x week is worthless if doc does not understand that time for new doc on that alone. Again like always I sound like a parrot but get your own blood work its so cheap as you will never know without numbers.

AlphaStrength50
02-06-2014, 10:31 AM
try low dose ai eod

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AlphaStrength50
02-06-2014, 10:32 AM
like aromasin bro

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j2048b
02-06-2014, 11:21 AM
try low dose ai eod

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Yup! Allthough i usually do 1 mlg anastrozole per week at 1 time never gave me e2 issues


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zdudezdud
02-08-2014, 06:11 PM
so are you off the clomid completely now? I'm impressed with the 1258 test if your E2 was under control it would have been even higher along with your free test.

46and2
02-08-2014, 06:47 PM
so are you off the clomid completely now? I'm impressed with the 1258 test if your E2 was under control it would have been even higher along with your free test.

No I'm still on it. Another thing that has me thinkin about changing doctors. I did 4 weeks at 50mg/day, almost 8 weeks now at 50mg/weekday. My extra adex came today and I took 1mg to start. I don't get to talk to the doc until the 19th. I'm bumping the adex up on my own because I gotta do something about these nipples and E2. I don't touch them like many people do and force the issue. And I think I should have tapered completely off by now.

Roy1027
02-13-2014, 08:31 PM
Very low lol

Rockyy
02-23-2014, 09:13 PM
Well, my levels are also in the shitter. I've gotten them up a bit with pct, but they seem to drop back down not long after.

I was clean for over a year, and they still remained low.

I'm hesitant to get TRT thinking that would shut them down the rest of the way.

I don't understand the long term effects of TRT enough to make a decision about it.

s2h
02-24-2014, 12:12 PM
Google HIV/Aids males on testosterone replacement....you can find some long term studies on men on TRT..

In a nutshell it is the AI that may be more trouble then the actual test dose...with arimidex showing a steady suppression of HDL over several years...it one reason GTx designed Ostarine to look for a replacement for TRT w/out the sides....

Issue is also with low T men face health challenges...kinda a giant see-saw..

Rockyy
02-26-2014, 11:54 AM
Thanks sh2

46and2
03-06-2014, 01:24 PM
Damn, now it feels like there are tiny hard lumps under my nipples! I should have listened to you guys and got a new doctor. I'm on 1mg/week adex. Should I pick up letro? Maybe nolva? Fuck! :wits:

j2048b
03-06-2014, 01:44 PM
Yup id pick up both! And GET A NEW DOC! :)


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46and2
03-06-2014, 01:56 PM
Wouldn't nolva make things worse though? Since taking a SERM (clomid) is what caused my high test and e2 to begin with. How would another SERM make it better?

j2048b
03-12-2014, 09:22 PM
I actually have buddies who use nolva as opposed to the standard ai such as arimedex or aromasin and they say it works better for them, nolvo otoh is very very strong and needed only in emergency


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46and2
03-22-2014, 01:52 PM
Quick update. Off Clomid completely, been running high dose adex for over a week. The tiny lump appears to be gone, and now my nipples are only sensitive in extreme cold. Puffiness has gone away as well. I'm bummed about having to start all over again looking for a doc, going through tests, paying the $200-$300 initial consult fees, etc. Maybe I'll get lucky and the Clomid kick started me for good, but I doubt it.

independent
03-22-2014, 02:56 PM
Quick update. Off Clomid completely, been running high dose adex for over a week. The tiny lump appears to be gone, and now my nipples are only sensitive in extreme cold. Puffiness has gone away as well. I'm bummed about having to start all over again looking for a doc, going through tests, paying the $200-$300 initial consult fees, etc. Maybe I'll get lucky and the Clomid kick started me for good, but I doubt it.

So to hear that. Why dont you try a trt clinic, look through the trt clinic thread.

46and2
03-22-2014, 02:57 PM
So to hear that. Why dont you try a trt clinic, look through the trt clinic thread.

This was through a clinic in Florida. I'm looking for another one but I will definitely be a bit more selective this time.

j2048b
03-22-2014, 08:58 PM
Man most good clinics dont have a "fee", and u can send in any bw u have from prior draws, just has to be recent!


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46and2
03-23-2014, 06:56 AM
Man most good clinics dont have a "fee", and u can send in any bw u have from prior draws, just has to be recent!


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I was told by several, including newera, that my "initial consult fee" would "only" be X-$100 instead of X because I already had been receiving treatment elsewhere and had recent bloods.

flood
03-23-2014, 11:01 AM
I use a naturopath that has me dialed in great - he has a brick&mortar TRT clinic. He lifts heavy and is hip to diet. Does your state allow ND's to Rx T 46and2?

46and2
03-23-2014, 11:12 AM
I use a naturopath that has me dialed in great - he has a brick&mortar TRT clinic. He lifts heavy and is hip to diet. Does your state allow ND's to Rx T 46and2?

I believe not. I am in Oklahoma, and NDs are not able to take insurance here. So mu guess is they cannot prescribe TRT.

j2048b
03-24-2014, 08:45 PM
I was told by several, including newera, that my "initial consult fee" would "only" be X-$100 instead of X because I already had been receiving treatment elsewhere and had recent bloods.

Damn man sorry not sure when that came into effect?


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46and2
03-25-2014, 10:36 AM
How long after coming off Clomid should I wait to take my bloods? I was thinking 4-6 weeks.

independent
03-25-2014, 03:07 PM
How long after coming off Clomid should I wait to take my bloods? I was thinking 4-6 weeks.

Yes.

MI1972
04-29-2014, 10:48 AM
Ok so I talked to a clinic to see what they had to say. My new blood tests were interesting:

Total Test 399 ng/dL 348-1197

Free Test (Direct) 11.2 pg/mL 8.7-25.1

TSH 2.270 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500

LH 4.7 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6

E2 23.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

PSA 0.6 ng/mL 0.0-4.0

Total Cholesterol 270 mg/dL 100-199

HDL 51 mg/dL >39

LDL 191 mg/dL 0-99

Trig 139 mg/dL 0-149

VLDL Cholesterol 28 mg/dL 5-40

So a couple of things jump out at me. First is the 110 point jump in total test, although I guess that could be caused by the testers since the ranges are different? Second is the cholesterol numbers. Holy crap they look bad to me. I'm not overweight, I weight train and do BJJ, all my fats come from fish oil, nuts/seeds, and lean meat. My parents both have/had high cholesterol and took medication for it, so it may be genetic. I'm talking with the new doc tomorrow but I am really concerned about the cholesterol numbers. Any thoughts on lowering that naturally without statins?


This is interesting... I had very similar, although not as high, cholesterol numbers and I have always been low. Seems as my test goes down, the cholesterol goes up. I too received the "normal" response from the endo with a 253 total test. Very irritating that when you receive bloodwork out of range, they still come up with... oh you are normal.

MI1972
04-29-2014, 10:53 AM
I went to a TRT clinic and it was the best thing I could've done. The Dr there is checking everything -and at a frequency that seems a lot safer, unlike the endo's office.
I feel better already. The TRT clinic is covered by insurance 85% and is 100% legal & medically safe.

May I ask what clinic? was it local to you?

46and2
06-08-2014, 07:41 PM
Quick update here. I tested bloods on 2014-04-03 and again on 2014-06-06. The 2nd time I paid for it myself through privatemdlabs, as I am no longer working with my previous clinic.

April - Total 828, Free 30.4, E2 29.1, LH 6.9, FSH not tested

June - Total 533, Free not tested, E2 19.1, LH 5.0, FSH 4.5

So obviously my testes work WHEN they are stimulated. And it appears they are not being stimulated very well. I feel kinda ok right now. Not motivated at work, sex drive much lower than when my test was 1195 but not as low as when it was in the 280-399 range. Starting to feel the "zombie", going through the motions of living feeling that I had before. I still train BJJ 5-7 days a week, and do 2 strength and 3 conditioning sessions each week. Obviously if I go to a new doc now, they will probably not do anything with a 533 total level. So I am wary of paying $100-$200 for a doc visit only to be told I'll have to drop down back below range before I'll be treated. But I sure as shit don't want to go back where I was, that was a dark and shitty place to be.

independent
06-09-2014, 06:04 AM
So im assuming your not using anything anymore? Only suggestion i have is of you need to lower your t levels before seeing a new doc you could use a legal oral steroid to shut yourself down before labs.

dyna
06-09-2014, 10:44 AM
Those numbers are very good, you are getting a T level of 533 and you arent taking anything at all? What is your age?

independent
06-09-2014, 12:26 PM
Those numbers are very good, you are getting a T level of 533 and you arent taking anything at all? What is your age?

I would like to see his free t numbers.

46and2
09-08-2014, 11:00 AM
Got tested again last week, this time with free T numbers:

Total Testosterone - 446 ng/dL Range: 348 - 1197 ng/dL
Free Testosterone - 10.6 pg/mL Range: 8.7 - 25.1 pg/mL
LH - 8.3 Range: 1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL
FSH - 5.3 Range: 1.5 - 12.4 mIU/mL
E2 - 9.1 Range: 7.6 - 42.6 pg/mL

So since June I went from 533 to 446 Total T. I did not have my free tested in June but now it is 10.6 pg/mL. The things I found interesting were my LH is much higher than it was in June, yet total T is down. That almost indicates my testes are NOT working as well as they did back on Clomid. Also, my E2 is pretty low, lower than it has ever been before. Not sure why that is either.

46and2
09-11-2014, 12:56 PM
I found a place on my insurance!!! I talked with them and they are very modern, up to date on self-inject, adex, hCG. I have to wait until the 22nd for my appointment but I am excited.

independent
09-11-2014, 08:35 PM
So glad to hear.

46and2
09-23-2014, 12:51 PM
*sigh*

My "modern" doctor wants me to either do Clomid again with a closer eye on E2 or try hCG monotherapy. I really have no idea what to think about this. If I dropped back down after Clomid once, why would this time be different? Why would hCG be different? I'm too chicken shit to self-medicate though.

46and2
10-20-2014, 11:36 AM
hCG failed. Total T was 255 ng/dL, free T was 5.6 pg/mL. Ranges were 348-1197 and 8.7-25.1. Fuck it, time for TRT.

independent
10-20-2014, 05:44 PM
What was your hcg dose?

46and2
10-20-2014, 06:18 PM
What was your hcg dose?

2000IU E3D for a total of 10,000IU. She said we would run that and see how I reacted. I'm not sure how much of a boost she expected but I bet that was not what she expected.

46and2
10-24-2014, 07:23 AM
Finally getting squared away. 160mg test cyp weekly, .5mg adex 2x weekly, 500UI hCG 2x weekly. Doc wants me to do a single IM shot weekly, so I am going to try that before going to multiple shots, subq, etc.

j2048b
10-24-2014, 10:17 AM
Finally getting squared away. 160mg test cyp weekly, .5mg adex 2x weekly, 500UI hCG 2x weekly. Doc wants me to do a single IM shot weekly, so I am going to try that before going to multiple shots, subq, etc.

Well holy shitake its bout time eh? Ur finally getting on everything u need! Happy for u man! Do urself a favor watch ur hematocrit like an eagle....

A single shot done on monday will work out fine as long as u time ur hcg shots correctly,

I always did monday test shot, tuesday adex, wed hcg, thursday test, friday adex,, sunday hcg....

It may take u a while to get dialed in and u can adjust ur dosages from there....

Im getting off trt due to uncontrollable hematocrit.... Im deadly tired and blood is thick, yes phlebotomy, but only brings it down a few points....

Good luck man!


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46and2
10-24-2014, 11:52 AM
Yeah no doubt, just did my first injection. My hematocrit is towards the low end but I plan to keep it in check for sure!

j2048b
10-24-2014, 11:53 AM
Yeah no doubt, just did my first injection. My hematocrit is towards the low end but I plan to keep it in check for sure!

AWESOME! Man uve been thru the ringer fo sho! Ive seen u on a few different boards and its nice to see theu all the crap one goes thru finally winning in the end!


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independent
10-25-2014, 09:46 AM
Finally getting squared away. 160mg test cyp weekly, .5mg adex 2x weekly, 500UI hCG 2x weekly. Doc wants me to do a single IM shot weekly, so I am going to try that before going to multiple shots, subq, etc.
Once a week is fine, im even doing my hcg once a week and actually feel great. I lowered my test dose down to 100mgs a week and my libido is better. Im not even taking an ai, i need to get blood work on this new protocol though.

46and2
10-25-2014, 02:58 PM
Once a week is fine, im even doing my hcg once a week and actually feel great. I lowered my test dose down to 100mgs a week and my libido is better. Im not even taking an ai, i need to get blood work on this new protocol though.

What were you before 100 mg/week? Do you think your E2 was too high without an AI, possibly causing the low libido?

independent
10-25-2014, 07:02 PM
What were you before 100 mg/week? Do you think your E2 was too high without an AI, possibly causing the low libido?
I know my total test was too high and my e2 was fine, i really dont know why its better now. If i bump my test up to 300mgs a week my libido come back.

46and2
11-13-2014, 07:26 AM
Did my 4th shot today. Previous 3 were with 25g 1" in the DG. The syringes from the doctor left almost 0.1cc of oil in the syringe after injecting, so I got some low dead space, 25g 5/8" Terumo syringes. These worked perfectly in my VL (quad), z-tracked, today with no PIP whatsoever. In fact, it doesn't even feel like I injected there. I'm sticking with the 1x weekly IM injection like my doctor recommended, even though others are doing 2x weekly SC.

Things are going great. Between sex and beating off I am going to have callouses on my junk. My wife thinks I will surpass her libido soon. Recovery is better, so is energy. I am doing BJJ 6 days a week, lifting 2x (5/3/1 for MMA) and doing 2x conditioning each week. I'm about to add a 3rd day of lifting as well. My attitude is improving. I don't think about death all the time. I joke with my wife like I used to. I walk with a bit of swagger. I'm hungry all the time. I'm up about 5-6 pounds already, having added 500 calories a day to my diet. hCG is keeping my boys from disappearing but the definitely do not hang as low as they used to. I've started a blog (in my sig) about my experience.

independent
11-15-2014, 11:34 AM
Glad to hear youre feeling good.

dyna
01-04-2015, 12:45 PM
My worry is DHT. My dht levels are in the 90's at 100 mgs if T cyp per week. Total test is 580 at end of week( day 7), which is when my dht levels were measured.
when i do clomid and my T levels are 600 my dht are in the high 40's. Why is it when doing t, they raise so much?
i am 47 and already have prostate issues.