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Var cycle, diet, and training experiences!

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PLpb

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Still currently not on gear, just training and focusing on nutrition.
A little preface: I have read older posts by members, sassy, and some of sassy's responses (including stickies).
For the ladies out there using var, what kind of deficit (if any) are you creating via diet and training? Would any ladies care to share a brief experience about diet/training/var? (Currently subbed to belle's log).
I understand that taking an anabolic obviously means growth, and does NOT mean "magic pill to make me loose fat and look toned" (I hate the word toned).
Lastly, I have also taken time to read many of the posts from a ways back about ppl's wives/friends taking var and gaining weight. Not looking for any of those stories..because I'm thinking the unspoken words or underlying themes of those stories may be related to issues of nutrition and training! Thanks :)
 
You need to start with what you are trying to accomplish. You can cut or build on any steroid based on what your diet, training, cardio & recovery are designed to support.

What are you trying to accomplish?
 
My goals are primarily to increase strength and muscle mass but also to lower body fat.
I track my foods-About 5days per week the macro break down is 35%protein, 10% carbs, 55% fat. Eggs, meat, coconut oil, green veggies, wpi post workout, nuts are staples. I get anywhere from 1600-2000kcals depending on what my training looked like (higher cals for higher volume and expenditure days). Higher carb days once a week or twice a week depending on how I feel. I know that's a fairly general description.
Current bf% is ~18. Weight 142.
Lift 6days a week, occasionally only 5 days. Cardio is usually 5x week, 20-30 minutes either intervals or steady state. Recovery is stretching and foam rolling on days off.
 
You're more than likely going to gain weight simply because it promotes lean muscle mass. That's why we throw out the scale and don't get hung up on weight but rather look at body composition. And again, your results are going to be driven by your diet & training. If you are not getting the specific results you are looking for from your current program, then you need to step back and tweak it to promote those goals. The var will support that.
 
sassy69 said:
You're more than likely going to gain weight simply because it promotes lean muscle mass. That's why we throw out the scale and don't get hung up on weight but rather look at body composition. And again, your results are going to be driven by your diet & training. If you are not getting the specific results you are looking for from your current program, then you need to step back and tweak it to promote those goals. The var will support that.
Click to expand...

I was able to lose 3% bf with nutrition and training and looking to see what I need to tweak. I wouldn't mind putting on some more muscle.
 
I should have said, I want to put on more muscle mass, rather than I wouldn't mind. :)!
 
PLpb said:
I should have said, I want to put on more muscle mass, rather than I wouldn't mind. :)!
Click to expand...

If you eat to build, the var will support that, and even more so, allow you to recover faster for generally bigger lifts, more aggressive training schedule. That said, don't go too crazy to see "what you can lift" as not all links in the chain are affected by the var - e.g. tendons, joints, ligaments may suffer if you lift more than they are able to support. Also AAS tends to mask pain that your body would otherwise be using to notify you of a body component that is having a hard time w/ your lifting schedule and if you aren't aware of it, you may actually injure yourself. When you come off, this can become even more apparent. Just something to keep in mind.

To that point - the note about women who end up "thick" when they were expecting a cycle to fix everything - if you're not already lean, you may notice that you are getting "thicker" w/ the muscle growth. If you're doing a serious bulker - embrace it as getting hung up on "how you look" will really just compromise your results. You can do a cut later. Or if you want to minimize the excess that tends to come w/ a serious bulker, do a "clean bulk", which can be done something like a carb cycle but w/ more food - putting your higher carb days on days you're using them, higher fat / lower carbs on cardio or non-training days. The gains will be slower but cleaner, thus less to cut when you come to that phase. If you want to cut more, then your gains will obviously be less than if you were doing a full bulk simply because you aren't really eating to grow, but you can also cut more. Really depends on your goals. But you also need to be realistic about the goals you want and the stages you will need to go thru to get there. Spend some time commiting to a growth phase and after say 8-12 weeks, go to a lower maintenance diet to tighten up and maintain. Whatever. The point is don't try to do everythign at once because it will just compromise your results.
 
Thank you for this post! And I appreciate you talking about the recovery/pain/injury risk because this is something I had not yet read, and I tend to not stop until I'm really hurting. Being stubborn Is not my best attribute when training.
I would not be considered lean at this point at 18%bf... So I see your point about not doing everything at once. I don't expect aas to be a crutch cause the reality is I could just end up thick if I pursue things mindlessly. For now, I'm thinking maintenance calories and carb cycling. I'm a planner so I appreciate any direction. Taking the time to plan out what I want and how to get there is something I'm going to analyze, plan, implement and then evaluate as I go!
 
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malfeasance said:
18% is a really good look for a woman, whereas it would be fat for a man. What % are you seeking to be?
Click to expand...

I'd like around 16. Got to 17.5 over a year ago and felt pretty good, but didn't have as much lean mass.
 
sassy69 said:
If you eat to build, the var will support that, and even more so, allow you to recover faster for generally bigger lifts, more aggressive training schedule. That said, don't go too crazy to see "what you can lift" as not all links in the chain are affected by the var - e.g. tendons, joints, ligaments may suffer if you lift more than they are able to support. Also AAS tends to mask pain that your body would otherwise be using to notify you of a body component that is having a hard time w/ your lifting schedule and if you aren't aware of it, you may actually injure yourself. When you come off, this can become even more apparent. Just something to keep in mind.

To that point - the note about women who end up "thick" when they were expecting a cycle to fix everything - if you're not already lean, you may notice that you are getting "thicker" w/ the muscle growth. If you're doing a serious bulker - embrace it as getting hung up on "how you look" will really just compromise your results. You can do a cut later. Or if you want to minimize the excess that tends to come w/ a serious bulker, do a "clean bulk", which can be done something like a carb cycle but w/ more food - putting your higher carb days on days you're using them, higher fat / lower carbs on cardio or non-training days. The gains will be slower but cleaner, thus less to cut when you come to that phase. If you want to cut more, then your gains will obviously be less than if you were doing a full bulk simply because you aren't really eating to grow, but you can also cut more. Really depends on your goals. But you also need to be realistic about the goals you want and the stages you will need to go thru to get there. Spend some time commiting to a growth phase and after say 8-12 weeks, go to a lower maintenance diet to tighten up and maintain. Whatever. The point is don't try to do everythign at once because it will just compromise your results.
Click to expand...

Great post. It's refreshing to read wisdom rather than the latest...whatever...
 
whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone
 
FrankNegrete said:
whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone
Click to expand...
by the way the pregnancy was over a year ago so I dont want anyone to think that she would be using anything while breastfeeding, she has lost some body fat but has some stubborn areas
 
FrankNegrete said:
whats a good kick start for a woman looking to loose body fat, my wife is a former cheerleader eats well but cant seem to loose a little belly fat from pregnancy, is clen a good choice, thats what i was thinking, anyone
Click to expand...

I have no idea on clen. I've certainly read lots on it. If you do a general search in the forum on clen there is lots of info. The sticky in the female section is informative too!
 
Was scanning the posts for more info on AAS for my wife and saw this thread and thought I would share the experience my wife had with it. She has been on it about 4 months off and on. 8 weeks on and then 8 off. I know they say you can run var without a break but we decided to go on the cautious side. We also track our macros and count everything. At first she was eating a similar diet higher in fat and lower in carbs. We noticed with this diet we were unable to make much progress with leaning out even with cardio 3 times a week and at a deficiency of overall calories up to 500 a day. She got stronger but her goal was the same as the OP.

We switched to a high protein low fat and middle of the road carb diet like 50 protein, 20 fat, and 30 carbs. The difference was night and day. In both scenarios she stayed with a 7.5mg dose a day. Maybe just what her body likes but it worked much better. She was able to shed pounds of fat while gaining lean muscle. in the past 4 months she has gained about 10 pounds of muscle and lost 4 points on the BF and is now nearing 10% BF. at 5'7" and 115 pounds. When we started training her about 7 years ago she was only about 110 pounds and 18%BF.

What I hypothesize happened in explaining the difference between the 2 diets and the reason for the dramatic difference is that. We were taking a cheat day once a week and the low carb high fat made her extremely insulin sensitive, so when we ate a little loosely on the cheat day the extra carbs triggered a huge insulin response that made her hold water. That coupled with the high fat put her body in a state where the day of and the day after the cheat day she was laying down fat and storing the extra glucose and water. Which would result in it taking her days to get back to the lower weight she previously had the week before. It also was not just weight. It was water and additional fat which was confirmed by BF testing using calipers and once we paid for the water emersion test at the day before cheat day and then again the second day after the cheat day.

So now she runs a middle of the road carb intake, her workouts are much more productive, she is not bonking out towards the end of the week, she is losing fat and gaining muscle. With the carbs being higher all week the cheat day ends up being more like steak and wine. Other than pizza and pasta. We just don't crave the big carb meals anymore. As a result the insulin sensitivity is back to normal and no huge swings in weight the days after the cheat day. It's much easier on her body she would complain of her sides aching from bloat after a cheat day with the low carb diet. Now the cheat day is more for our own sanity and less of a stress to the body.

Women have unique challenges in this game. Different than men. the whole hormone cycle is another story that would compound the insulin response with added bloat with the low carb diet. Anyway just wanted to share our experience and what we found to work which is similar to what the OP is trying to achieve.
 
SoCalSwole said:
Was scanning the posts for more info on AAS for my wife and saw this thread and thought I would share the experience my wife had with it. She has been on it about 4 months off and on. 8 weeks on and then 8 off. I know they say you can run var without a break but we decided to go on the cautious side. We also track our macros and count everything. At first she was eating a similar diet higher in fat and lower in carbs. We noticed with this diet we were unable to make much progress with leaning out even with cardio 3 times a week and at a deficiency of overall calories up to 500 a day. She got stronger but her goal was the same as the OP.

We switched to a high protein low fat and middle of the road carb diet like 50 protein, 20 fat, and 30 carbs. The difference was night and day. In both scenarios she stayed with a 7.5mg dose a day. Maybe just what her body likes but it worked much better. She was able to shed pounds of fat while gaining lean muscle. in the past 4 months she has gained about 10 pounds of muscle and lost 4 points on the BF and is now nearing 10% BF. at 5'7" and 115 pounds. When we started training her about 7 years ago she was only about 110 pounds and 18%BF.

What I hypothesize happened in explaining the difference between the 2 diets and the reason for the dramatic difference is that. We were taking a cheat day once a week and the low carb high fat made her extremely insulin sensitive, so when we ate a little loosely on the cheat day the extra carbs triggered a huge insulin response that made her hold water. That coupled with the high fat put her body in a state where the day of and the day after the cheat day she was laying down fat and storing the extra glucose and water. Which would result in it taking her days to get back to the lower weight she previously had the week before. It also was not just weight. It was water and additional fat which was confirmed by BF testing using calipers and once we paid for the water emersion test at the day before cheat day and then again the second day after the cheat day.

So now she runs a middle of the road carb intake, her workouts are much more productive, she is not bonking out towards the end of the week, she is losing fat and gaining muscle. With the carbs being higher all week the cheat day ends up being more like steak and wine. Other than pizza and pasta. We just don't crave the big carb meals anymore. As a result the insulin sensitivity is back to normal and no huge swings in weight the days after the cheat day. It's much easier on her body she would complain of her sides aching from bloat after a cheat day with the low carb diet. Now the cheat day is more for our own sanity and less of a stress to the body.

Women have unique challenges in this game. Different than men. the whole hormone cycle is another story that would compound the insulin response with added bloat with the low carb diet. Anyway just wanted to share our experience and what we found to work which is similar to what the OP is trying to achieve.
Click to expand...

SoCal, thank you very much for the detailed post about your wife's experience. It's interesting to hear she did better with the middle of the road carbs. I'm constantly questioning my macros as I track everything. I do cardio 4-6 times a week and feel like my progress has been slow. That obviously has to do with overall calorie intake on my part but I still feel like it's slow given a deficit. It's good to hear she was able to build muscle AND lose fat. I'm trying to slowly tweak my diet to accomplish this at a faster rate!
Also interesting info on the insulin sensitivity and water retention.. I've experienced similar.
Again thanks for sharing- I was hoping tk hear some stories like this.
 
PLpb said:
SoCal, thank you very much for the detailed post about your wife's experience. It's interesting to hear she did better with the middle of the road carbs. I'm constantly questioning my macros as I track everything. I do cardio 4-6 times a week and feel like my progress has been slow. That obviously has to do with overall calorie intake on my part but I still feel like it's slow given a deficit. It's good to hear she was able to build muscle AND lose fat. I'm trying to slowly tweak my diet to accomplish this at a faster rate!
Also interesting info on the insulin sensitivity and water retention.. I've experienced similar.
Again thanks for sharing- I was hoping tk hear some stories like this.
Click to expand...

Your welcome, That's why were all here to learn from each other. You might try the diet change with the lower fat and raise the carbs. It might work for you as well. Sounds like You and my wife have similar experiences with the higher fat diet. If you try it give it a good 3 weeks. It will take some time for you to stop being insulin sensitive. Expect the first week to gain a few due to this same response. But use it to your advantage you should have some amazing workouts with the extra glucose your body has been missing. As long as the fat stays low you won't gain fat. You will actually find your true body weight because you are no longer depleted and the muscles are now full with all the glycogen they need for maximum out put.

There are also several vitamin supplements that help with insulin sensitivity that work quite well. Vitamin shoppe has one called Sugar aid that we use and it helps when we eat a carb meal we don't get the insulin sleepy's that I am sure you know about.

One last thing, we now do almost zero cardio and still have better results. If you manage the fat intake and overall calories I am a firm believer you don't need cardio. I've done it both ways. This way is much easier and less time consuming for me at least. There are those that love to sweat doing hours of cardio. I'd rather sweat lifting.

Good luck
 
SoCalSwole said:
Your welcome, That's why were all here to learn from each other. You might try the diet change with the lower fat and raise the carbs. It might work for you as well. Sounds like You and my wife have similar experiences with the higher fat diet. If you try it give it a good 3 weeks. It will take some time for you to stop being insulin sensitive. Expect the first week to gain a few due to this same response. But use it to your advantage you should have some amazing workouts with the extra glucose your body has been missing. As long as the fat stays low you won't gain fat. You will actually find your true body weight because you are no longer depleted and the muscles are now full with all the glycogen they need for maximum out put.

There are also several vitamin supplements that help with insulin sensitivity that work quite well. Vitamin shoppe has one called Sugar aid that we use and it helps when we eat a carb meal we don't get the insulin sleepy's that I am sure you know about.

One last thing, we now do almost zero cardio and still have better results. If you manage the fat intake and overall calories I am a firm believer you don't need cardio. I've done it both ways. This way is much easier and less time consuming for me at least. There are those that love to sweat doing hours of cardio. I'd rather sweat lifting.

Good luck
Click to expand...


Good to hear! Patience and consistency for all diet changes is important for sure. I just adjusted my macros last night in MFP app and for 20% carbs =85g. Lowered fat to 35%. I'll see how my body responds.
Can I ask, since I'm still a little leery of carbs, what are the carb sources your wife is consuming? I know everybody is different, but mine have been from veggies, nuts, almond milk while doing "low carb". I plan to keep those, but I simply can't imagine eating for example, Ezekiel bread or plain yogurt as I used to!
There is a vitamin shoppe near me :) so thanks! I have always done cardio and have this weird guilty feeling if I don't. Fearing carbs and feeling guilty for not doing cardio- lol oh my I sound a little nuts. I'm just being honest. Yet I hear so many people who have excellent results with minimal to none!
 
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PLpb said:
Good to hear! Patience and consistency for all diet changes is important for sure. I just adjusted my macros last night in MFP app and for 20% carbs =85g. Lowered fat to 35%. I'll see how my body responds.
Can I ask, since I'm still a little leery of carbs, what are the carb sources your wife is consuming? I know everybody is different, but mine have been from veggies, nuts, almond milk while doing "low carb". I plan to keep those, but I simply can't imagine eating for example, Ezekiel bread or plain yogurt as I used to!
There is a vitamin shoppe near me :) so thanks! I have always done cardio and have this weird guilty feeling if I don't. Fearing carbs and feeling guilty for not doing cardio- lol oh my I sound a little nuts. I'm just being honest. Yet I hear so many people who have excellent results with minimal to none!
Click to expand...

yea I know its totally foreign right? Think of this way now you have time to further split your lifting work outs to a single body part per day. Our sources of carbs come from primarily White yams, purple yams, brown rice, Ezekiel bread, Some fruit we don't really count the green veggies. We try to stay away from wheat. We also use a recarb supplement called Karbolean which packs a 50 gram punch to whatever you add it too and its slower digesting so it won't fall off too fast. great for long work outs.

We all have been brain washed for years that carbs are bad. Carbs are not bad. It's the ratio to fat and carbs that's important. Look at a pro physique competitors diet the carbs are almost 2-1 carbs to protein and they are lean. As long as you don't go past your caloric allowance and stay within your limits you set there will be no issue.

It is however much more challenging once you start moving the fats down to the 20% range. It really limits the proteins you can eat. Also nut butters are now off limits. You get used to it though. The results you can't argue with. It's literally night and day.

Your not going to notice a big difference until you tip the ratio to more carbs than fat. I am skeptical you will see any improvement adjusting the fat to 35% and 20% carbs. But I could be wrong. Carbs are what fuel your muscles, in the absence of fat they will not be converted and stored as fat. The reason the low carb diet works for weight reduction is because the body is forced to convert fat and protein to glucose which is extremely stressful on the body and toxic to your blood and organs. If one ate high carbs and high fat then the body would use the carbs as energy because its easier to convert to glucose and store the fat just in case for a later date. If you ensure your body it will never go glucose deprived it will give up its fat stores so it can carry less un needed weight.

I know its the opposite of everything rammed down our throats but do the research and you find all the pros doing the same. I know were not pros but why not reap the same benefits from the knowledge they have and have already proven to work. Low carb diets are for fat people who have no discipline and don't train for muscle building. To build muscle you need carbs and protein. Just cut the fat out.
 
Ok that is making sense to me. I have some experimenting to do! :)!! Again thank you!
 
Anytime sorry to get Frank in my responses but being a former Fat person constantly struggling on a low carb diet, I feel I can talk about said fat persons as such :)
 
I'd rather hear frank honesty than sugar coated shit. I have made some decent progress low carb but I want to progress more rapidly... Who doesn't lol. Do you, (curious about your wife too) train for hypertrophy/aesthetics, or strength, or all three?
 
Don't be afraid to hire someone for 12 weeks to teach you about dieting proper. Jerry Ward is good guy to look at. He works with a lot of women both competiting and non. His significant other is a figure competitor. bios3training
 
We are both training for hypertrophy and aesthetics. I am huge fan of the classic body building physiques. We don't really care how much we can lift. Our job as body builders is to contract and engorge the muscle with blood. The weight is just the tool to do that with.

But she can do pull ups and and dips with added weight (body weight plus more using a belt) I used to care how much I could bench. But now I find ways to make the muscle work harder. We are both NPC member's who compete. She is in the Physique category, I am a light heavy weight body builder 197 pounds on stage right now 210, and we also do mixed pairs.
 
Very cool! I've seen a few mixed pairs routines and I think it looks fun! Doing a prep simultaneously and then getting to display that dedication together- how exciting!
 
PLpb said:
Very cool! I've seen a few mixed pairs routines and I think it looks fun! Doing a prep simultaneously and then getting to display that dedication together- how exciting!
Click to expand...

Its just easier. Team work helps when will power gets weak. Plus it makes it easier with cravings. If im freaking out cuz I need some sugar and she eats a cookie because shes not in prep....well its not pretty. lol
 
SoCalSwole said:
Its just easier. Team work helps when will power gets weak. Plus it makes it easier with cravings. If im freaking out cuz I need some sugar and she eats a cookie because shes not in prep....well its not pretty. lol
Click to expand...

Lol happens to me quite often. I'm like get away with that food!
No plans for competition.. It's rather intimidating to me!! :)
 
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