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metallicat61003
08-29-2003, 11:21 AM
All of the articles that I have read about Arnold Schwarzenegger he says that he is totally against the use of steroids and that he never used them,,but some people I have talked to always say that there is no way to get that big without using steroids and that most bodybuilders do use steroids... Do any of you guys think that he used some sort of steroids??? And is it possible to get that huge without the help of steroids??

Mudge
08-29-2003, 11:38 AM
Yeah, Larry Scott did steroids but of course Arnold didn't, I dont know where you read that but I dont believe it. Now according to Larry they did very low dose stuff from what I read, but who knows what the truth is.

Do I believe its possible to get that big without steroids, probably not for almost any human alive today, me being white and not a one in a 500,000,000 genetically gifted person with a 1400ng natural test level, there is no way on this green and blue earth that I would reach a ripped 235 like Arnold did.

Prince
08-29-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by metallicat61003
All of the articles that I have read about Arnold Schwarzenegger he says that he is totally against the use of steroids and that he never used them,,but some people I have talked to always say that there is no way to get that big without using steroids and that most bodybuilders do use steroids... Do any of you guys think that he used some sort of steroids??? And is it possible to get that huge without the help of steroids??

are you serious?

of course Arnold used steroids.

that is correct, you cannot reach that level of muscular development without drugs, this is really common knowledge in the bodybuilding world. :)

Mudge
08-29-2003, 12:23 PM
You will notice virtually every "bodybuilding" type message board has a steroid section, it doesn't just get you there faster but it allows you to maintain unhuman levels of muscularity, if of course the person knows what they are doing.

Now if Arnold was all natural, and a competitor today with 10x+ the natural testosterone level of Arnold + multiple drug compounds, you would think they would be much larger than they already are would you not? Yet Markus Ruhl is "only" about 50 pounds heavier in competition form.

Prince
08-29-2003, 12:25 PM
Yes, steroids are a reality that many people want to believe does not exist, when in fact they exists in most sports, including NFL football, the Olympics, and many others.

As far as the drug testing, that is a joke.

Prince
08-29-2003, 12:27 PM
oh, btw metallicat61003 there are NO IFBB pro bodybuilders that do not use steroids, as well as many other drugs, e.g. GH.

Mudge
08-29-2003, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I think Shawn Ray tested positive once (winstrol), maybe for upsetting someone in the IFBB.

I would also add steroids or not, hardly anyone has the dicipline in the gym or in the kitchen to look like Arnold did, steroids or no steroids it is not some magical walk in the park that is easy to do, he still trained hard and he still had the mind of a champion.

Prince
08-29-2003, 12:33 PM
yeah, once in awhile I think they have to nab someone for political reasons. :)

Poor Shawn, he must have pissed Joe off that year. :D

PB&J
08-29-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Mudge


I would also add steroids or not, hardly anyone has the dicipline in the gym or in the kitchen to look like Arnold did, steroids or no steroids it is not some magical walk in the park that is easy to do, he still trained hard and he still had the mind of a champion.

That's the truth!

Mudge
08-29-2003, 12:36 PM
Look on the boards at people who have been using from 5-20 years, hardly a single one of them is really on that level. There are some that are above that (using way more than he did, as well as newer drugs), but this is proof itself that it is no cake walk. Anyone that tells you steroids fix everything for you doesn't know what they are talking about.

Those on that level are almost unanimously competitors, I can't say I've seen anyone with 20" arms who wasn't fat, that did not compete seriously. These are people who have resigned thier life to the sport, not casual lifters or eaters, it is almost a 24/7 job.

But if you have the know how to train and eat naturally to manipulate your body in the ways you want, then that would be a person who has a good shot of solid gains with assistance as well. I have seen people who hardly gain anything still hanging onto thier 170 pounds who have done 5 cycles, and they are full of excuses.

It is a true science and it takes know how, as well as dedication.

PB&J
08-29-2003, 12:39 PM
I was agreeing with you...

Prince
08-29-2003, 12:42 PM
I agree, steroids alone will not do shit.

It takes tremendous discipline, years of training, proper diet/nutrition, and probably most importantly genetics. You can take all of the drugs you want, but if you lack in any other area you will not make it.

Especially genetics, I do not think people realize how big of a factor genetics are for any star athlete. I just laugh when I hear people say "if I took steroids I could be like that". It's a joke, and they're ignorant to think that drugs alone will make you a champion in a sport.

Mudge
08-29-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by PB&J
I was agreeing with you...

I noticed, but I prefer to ramble, this topic could go on for ages.

I could also add that if you look at top competitors they eventually reach a point where they can hold onto what they have and maybe if they are lucky add 5 pounds a year on top of that.

Most if not all (I would not hesitate to bet on nearly all) heavy and super heavy national level competitors are on drugs YEAR ROUND, so far as I can tell from pictures and etc Arnold was not. This is an example of how eventually someone decides to push things one step further, and if one person does it then the others must follow or be left in the dust, this is true of all competitive things in life, business, athletics etc

I also agree that no matter the drugs, genetics still play a role not only in asthetics but in how much your going to achieve and hold. The steroids can be a huge helper, but someone with better genetics will gain more from less drugs (if they know what they are doing), and they will have less things to bother with like side effects and aromatase conversion, possibly bad kidney/liver/cholesterol levels and so on.

So, in summation this topic could go on for AGES :)

Prince
08-29-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Mudge
I could also add that if you look at top competitors they eventually reach a point where they can hold onto what they have and maybe if they are lucky add 5 pounds a year on top of that.


ummm...I have to kindly disagree with that. :)

ZECH
08-29-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Prince
I just laugh when I hear people say "if I took steroids I could be like that". It's a joke, and they're ignorant to think that drugs alone will make you a champion in a sport.
Yeah, but how many young kids do you see come on here, hell bent to take PH's or steriods because they think it is a quick fix? You can't convince them otherwise. I try though!:D

Mudge
08-29-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Prince
ummm...I have to kindly disagree with that. :)

No way man, tell me how many pounds Cutler has added competition wise in the last 5 years or so :)

If they were adding 20-30 pounds every 4 months like "newbie" users, then they would be much larger than they are now.

Prince
08-29-2003, 01:13 PM
I thought you were implying that if they stopped using drugs they could maintain their current weight/size, and still gain more.

Mudge
08-29-2003, 01:21 PM
Woah, no way. I may be slow but I'm not that slow! It will make permanent and everlasting changes but not on anywhere near that level.

They are on year round and definitely using what might be termed "maximal doseages" so they are basically in maintenance mode eventually.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Nov;31(11):1528-34.

Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes.

Kadi F, Eriksson A, Holmner S, Thornell LE.

Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Umea University, Sweden. Fawzi.Kadi@anatomy.umu.se

PURPOSE: Athletes who use anabolic steroids get larger and stronger muscles. How this is reflected at the level of the muscle fibers has not yet been established and was the topic of this investigation. METHODS: Muscle biopsies were obtained from the trapezius muscles of high-level power lifters who have reported the use of anabolic steroids in high doses for several years and from high-level power lifters who have never used these drugs. Enzyme-immunohistochemical investigation was performed to assess muscle fiber types, fiber area, myonuclear number, frequency of satellite cells, and fibers expressing developmental protein isoforms. RESULTS: The overall muscle fiber composition was the same in both groups. The mean area for each fiber type in the reported steroid users was larger than that in the nonsteroid users (P < 0.05). The number of myonuclei and the proportion of central nuclei were also significantly higher in the reported steroid users (P < 0.05). Likewise, the frequency of fibers expressing developmental protein isoforms was significantly higher in the reported steroid users group (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers. We propose that activation of satellite cells is a key process and is enhanced by the steroid use. The incorporation of the satellite cells into preexisting fibers to maintain a constant nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio seems to be a fundamental mechanism for muscle fiber growth. Although all the subjects in this study have the same level of performance, the possibility of genetic differences between the two groups cannot be completely excluded.

Prince
08-29-2003, 01:30 PM
okay, I misunderstood your post then. :)

BeerHunter
08-29-2003, 01:39 PM
I thought Arnold got that big from Joe Wieder's "Victory Mass"!

metallicat61003
08-29-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Prince
yeah, once in awhile I think they have to nab someone for political reasons. :)

Poor Shawn, he must have pissed Joe off that year. :D


So basically all the drug testing in sports is all one big joke??? And every once in a while they just have to bust someone just to make it seem like they are trying to get rid of the drugs???

Mudge
08-29-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by metallicat61003
So basically all the drug testing in sports is all one big joke??? And every once in a while they just have to bust someone just to make it seem like they are trying to get rid of the drugs???

Thats probably somewhat accurate, it almost seems random. However Shawn Ray has been a little "outspoken" so I am not supprised really that he got caught once. The way I hear it is even at tested competitions nothing is done with the urine samples, they sit in plain access to anyone in the area and they are pretty much ignored and there is no real security (BB competitions).

I think we forgot to add that the big pro wrestlers dont do steroids either :)

When it comes to the Olympics I believe the testing is much more geniune, so there are various techniques used to pass drug tests including possibly inserting someone elses urine as well as using very short acting drugs, all kinds of techniques to beat tests.

crackerjack414
08-30-2003, 11:44 AM
depending on the test epitest is sometimes administered to keep the allowed ratio. I believe its 6 to 1
Ok a few things kinda piss me off in this thread
Yeah us Kids who come on the board bent on using steroids. it doesnt matter that if u realy wanna get anywhere in this sport u gotta start at 17-18 if u wanna ever be a serious competitor. I mean if u are happy coming in 1st in local shows and being a big fish in a little pond thats fine. But when u start eyeing those npc shows u better be prepaired to either step it up a few notches or get your pride handed to u on a platter.

Prince
08-30-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by metallicat61003
So basically all the drug testing in sports is all one big joke??? And every once in a while they just have to bust someone just to make it seem like they are trying to get rid of the drugs???

Pretty much my friend..hard for you to swallow, huh? :) Sometimes reality and truth are a bit harsh.

The other side of it is even if they're truley testing (e.g. the Olympics) the athletes and coaches know how to get around the tests.

As mudge said, Shawn Ray has been known to rock the boat, so most likely that is why they busted him.

SolidToTheCORE
08-30-2003, 11:00 PM
A trained with a former 1st Round Draft Choice in the NFL and he said that his team gave them gear and that we the NFL was told the team who was to be tested. Most of the time they would have "pissers" for them. This guy was huge. He never had a clue what they gave him.

Mudge
08-30-2003, 11:05 PM
I found it funny that the massive weight gain attributed to one footballer over a couple seasons, was the fact that he now trained his glutes heavier :lol:

BUSTINOUT
08-31-2003, 01:37 AM
Those test crack me up when they are testing pro bbers. They hardly ever seem to test positive for AS, but always seem to find something like clen or lasix. That is some funny crap man.lol

SolidToTheCORE
08-31-2003, 10:22 AM
Look at David Boston w/ the San Diego Chargers. The guy is a freak.

Pumping Iron
08-31-2003, 10:43 AM
Just for your guys info...

I just finished reading the unauthorized autobiography of Arnold, where it got people opinions who were important in his life.

His trainers back in Austria (kurt marnul and others) said they introduced Arnold to dbol, and that everyday they used to be "shocked when arnold would stuff a handful of dbols and protien tablets into his mouth, wash them down with a glass of milk, and while barely being able to talk, would say "ok, now i'm ready".

Plus Arnold used to take primobolan on the reg...but those are just 2 steroids i know of.

Anyways, he admitted to taking them on CBS to Barbara Walters (or some big shot)...

Mudge
08-31-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Pumping Iron
Anyways, he admitted to taking them on CBS to Barbara Walters (or some big shot)...

Good call, I forgot about that interview.