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View Full Version : Low T and dropping, doc's no help, need advice



mickdigler
04-15-2017, 06:48 AM
Hi everyone! After months of reading this and other sites, I decided to post looking for some help. After a 406 TT reading in June of 2016 @ 40yrs old, I spent 9 months doing non-medical things (diet, sleep, stress mgmt, etc) in hopes of increasing TT due to low-t symptoms. I got tested again this March and my TT was down to 384. Did the whole PCP, Endo, Urologist thing, no one would do anything except the Urologist suggested OTC DHEA (50mg) and pregnenolone (60mg), which I did for the past month. Got tested again last week and my TT is down to 210. Went back to the Endo and Urologist and, again, no one would do anything except the Urologist said to stop DHEA and pregnenolone.

At this point I'm not sure where to turn. I was hoping to avoid TRT but feel like complete shit in spite of being lean and otherwise healthy (name a low-t symptom and I likely have it). Even if I do go the TRT route, my docs aren't having any of it, so I'm not certain how I would even go about doing so. Any advice, dr recommendations in Cleveland?

For some background, I'm 41, lean, been lifting for 20+ years and never did aas. Here's my blood work. Thanks!

June 2016
TT 406 (348-1197)
FT 11 (6.8-21.5)
DHEA 166 (31-701)
IGF-1 207 (83-233)

March 2017
TT 389 (348-1197)
FT 8.79 (5.00-21.00)
IGF-1 207 (75-216)
Estradiol, Sensitive 9.6 (8.0-35.0)

April 2017
TT 210 (348-1197)
FT 6.87 (5.00-21.00)
IGF-1 181 (75-216)
Estradiol, Sensitive 8.5 (8.0-35.0)

WesleyInman
04-15-2017, 09:28 AM
Hey Mick, Sorry to hear you are having this issue.

Good job documenting what is happening. The truth is, that in a hypogonadal male, all the right things, eating high protein, lifting weights, taking natural remedies sucha s Zinc, or Boron, etc..is only going to get you some small benefits. That is the fact of the matter.

No worries, there are several of us here who can help. I worked side by side with endos for the better part of 10+ years and have been researching AAS for close to 20,so I can be of assistance at the very minimum.

1) The very first and foremost factor you want to look at is age for one, will you ever return to a normal or "healthy" testosterone level?
2) Have you used anabolics ever? Recent research shows that even those who cycle 1 time, have a significant chance of returning to a much lower T level, then if they had never used Anabolics ever. So this is very important in making your decision whether you start HRT/TRT testosterone.

Now,what I will say in my experience, that doctors in general, are either not well aware of how to actually treat Low T, that or they personally demonize it, in many circumstances. So they do not want to properly treat men, they feel that they are encouraging abuse. Which "might" be true..but the actual truth is, that most men if they really want to abuse Steroids, are going to do it anyways. So my experience shows me that many doctors have their own "ethics" and think prescribing HRT should be a last avenue. And it should not. Once a male shows a deficiency..like any other medical need it should be treated.

Now you are hitting 2-400 on average. which is not healthy. The lower end of the spectrum is 240 nanos. You may have to test below 240 consistently for a few labs in order to quality for HRT. Now this is why so many men, simply skip using their doctors and go black market and self treat. If you are unable to get your doctor to prescribe, I am going to tell you the top 2 options to consider:

1) Clomid Therapy- 25mgs is the most common prescribed dosage per day. Clomid is an anti-estrogen that is NOT suppressive, therefore it will not shut down your natural HPTA production. It will in fact increase your total testosterone levels by a few hundred nanograms and it will certainly improve your Free Testosterone levels, or those circulating in your bloodstream. Most people would take 25mgs in the am. If you are seeing lets say 300nanos on average and use 25mgs of Clomid per day, you may easily see that after a month "on" this treatment, you are now at 600 nanos and you will see improvements in lean muscle, bodyfat losses, mood, and libido. Side effects can be headache, blurred vision, acne, or mood swings. These can happen but generally are well tolerated in males.

If your doctor cannot understand Clomid therapy (many of them cannot) then you may have to purchase your needs elsewhere. Research companies sell Clomid for "research purposes only". You can use my code "WES15" for 15% off at checkout, and here is their version of Clomid aka Clomiphene - http://www.ironmagresearch.com/products/liquid-clomiphene-citrate/

2) HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) If you cannot get a script for Test, your next best option may be to obtain it yourself. What I found a very solid dosaging for almost any male 18-60 who is hypogonadal, is 100mgs of Test Cyp every 4th day. These are intramuscular injections and you can google all kinds of information on how to go about administering this. If you start to see Testicular Atrophy then you long term can consider using HCG while on cycle, and a common dosage for this is 250iu-500iu 2x per week. HCG and/or an anti-aromotase compound or anti-E are not usually necessary on HRT dosaging. But what you would want to do is to test your levels eventually.

Lets say you are on 100mgs e4d as I stated above and then you want to know where your body is truly at. After say 1-2months of use, do your last injection. Wait 7 days and then do fasted bloodwork in the morning to see where your total and free testosterone levels are at.

100mgs E4d commonly results in a level of 700-1200 nanograms (On Average) in most users. I personally feel this is optimal for a male. A basic scale of testosterone in men is 240-1100 nanograms. So I will argue that 700-1200 is an optimal level to be at. It is safe, and it is the highest natural level that a male can maintain without being deemed "Superphysiological". In said range, you will see excellent ablility to gain and maintain new lean muscle, strength, healthy bodyfat losses, healthy sex drive, libido, erections quality and moods should be excellent.

If you cannot get a script and are looking for an option, I would suggest you look at the Sponsor on this forum called "DISPENSE QUICK". They carry Test Cyp at a very reasonable price and you can contact them for further assistance.

Tried to be brief as possible, hope this helps :)

mickdigler
04-15-2017, 10:05 AM
Thanks, Wesley! Your comments about docs demonizing it are spot on. All the docs, especially my PCP, had this attitude like it was my fault and did this to myself. Crazy to think, especially with PCP since I've been going to him since I was 12 and he knows I've never been on. Even if I had, that is no way to treat someone. Lost a lot of respect for him.

Thanks for all the info and links! I'll check everything out.

One more question I can't seem to find a straight answer on. There are some hrt clinics in the area that push "bio-identical" trt. Is that some marketing alternate name for plain old Test Cyp and the like, or something else and best to avoid?

WesleyInman
04-15-2017, 05:06 PM
You are welcome. Here is a response in regards to your question:

The term "bioidentical" means the hormones in the product are chemically identical to those your body produces. In fact, the hormones in bioidentical medications may not be any different from those in traditional hormone therapy. Several hormone therapy products approved by the FDA and prescribed by health care providers contain bioidentical hormones.

I would personally challenge any chemist, or pharmaceutical company or scientist to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bio-Identical Test has any advantage over your every day Pharm grade synthetic test cyp. I have never seen a study that would indicate a single advantage of a bio-identical test versus your standard Test Cyp. And I would be willing to guess that Bio-Identical hormones cost 3-4x as much, if not more.

Here are other concepts to consider.




They're produced in doses and forms that differ from those in FDA-approved products. For many nonstandard combinations, you need to go through a compounding pharmacy ? one that specializes in making medications customized for your individual needs. However, products from compounding pharmacies haven't been subject to the same rigorous quality assurance standards that standard commercially available hormonal preparations have to meet.
They're custom made for you, based on a test of your saliva to assess your unique hormonal needs. Unfortunately, however, the hormone levels in your saliva don't reflect the levels in your blood or correspond to menopause symptoms.

mickdigler
04-15-2017, 09:59 PM
Roger that. Thanks again man. I really appreciate the help! You've given me more info than three docs combined!

WesleyInman
04-16-2017, 05:15 PM
Roger that. Thanks again man. I really appreciate the help! You've given me more info than three docs combined!

Of course man, anytime. Very glad to help.

I truly hope you get the medical option that you need and your health and overall life improves from having a healthy Testosterone level.

Good luck man :)

Trtdoc
08-12-2017, 11:51 PM
Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. That is never ok, however you do need to be on TRT at those levels and with those subjective symptoms. It is my recommendation

Dr b