Hitting a plateau - Need help to break it.

I'm sure everyone else has been here. This is my second.

I'm 22 years old, 5'7 (or 5'6), I only weigh in at about 138 pounds, I bench about 130 to 140 lbs, curl an EZ-Bar with two 25 lb. plates (one on each side), shoulders (military press) EZ-Bar with two 35 lb. plates (one on each side) and squat a barbell with a 45 pound plate on each side. I know I'm leaving out alot of exercises, but I wanted to just cover some generic ones.

I've tried GoPro's routine with limited, and I mean limited, results. No blame to him, it got me off my last "plateau" (so I owe him big-time), but it doesn't seem to do much anymore. I more or less am using a slight variant of it still, focussing mostly on the "power" related section. I do try and "mix things up" by changing the routine every 4-6 weeks by swapping exercises (i.e. no flyes this month - I do decline instead). I run a 3-day split (Chest/Bi, Back/Tri, Legs/traps), with no cardio at all.

Given my exceptionally tiny bone structure/frame (my wrists are barely 6 inches in total circumference) I've accepted the fact that mass is inevitably going to be exceptionally difficult (nigh impossible) to add without making sure EVERYTHING is right.

Despite having a diet that supplies (nearly) 20 calories per pound of body weight, I'm making no gains. I've got a balanced and approved mealplan, and my routine is one from this board. I literally don't have any remaining time in the day to add a sixth meal since I keep limited hours during university.

I'm eating about 1.75 grams of protein per pound of weight, have plenty of healthy fats, and clean carbs. Both in terms of time and money, I can't "afford" to eat much more than I do already.

Long story there I know, but I wanted to cover as much as I could. The long and short is, I'm getting frustrated. Organizing my days so I can fit 5 meals, spending the extra cash on good quality food, and paying for a gym membership when I'm seeing few results is becoming a real downer.

I sort of feel like I'm in limbo. I'm not as defined as I once was, due to the water retention from creatine I use, and the limited weight that I have added - but I'm not visibly "bigger" enough to justify the loss of my previous 10.4% BF.

Any suggestions on what should be altered/added, or any personal experience stories, and what worked for you would be appreciated. Cheers

If you are talking weight gains that is still diet, although you are eating slightly more than I am per pound. I am taking in about 18.6 calories per pound @ 230.

If you are talking about general strength gains, this is why most people mix up the routine every 8-12 weeks or whenever it stops working for them.

I seem to be discovering with my own body that size is EXTREMELY slow if I am not willing to put on some bodyfat, this is with a protein intake of 420g or greater per day. When I was smaller though this was not so true, but obviously I had my plateus also.

How do you mean "that's still diet"?

For a clean bulk, I saw 15 to 18 calories recommended, which (when I did some independent research on bio-chemistry, etc.) made perfect sense. 18 did nothing, now I'm up to 20. I couldn't care less about bodyfat as long as the muscle gains are quantifiably larger than the BF% gain. I wouldn't be at 19.7 cals/lb if I was holding out hope to keep BF the same while adding lean mass

Being small, I'm more concerned with adding size than strength - which is why I do a 3 day split to maximize rest/recovery, and skip cardio all together.

Anything else I'm missing or doing wrong? Cheers for the reply mate.

If you are looking to gain weight and its not coming then it is clearly diet. I knew another guy who was 145 pounds and was doing about 3500 calories a day and still holding weight (if he was counting correctly). Some people just have lightning fast metabolisms.

Mine is much slower, for you to eat like that and be at 10% bodyfat I somewhat envy you, I'd have to diet down pretty drastically to hit something like that. For me to hit 13% is something of an achievement.

When I was putting on easy weight (didn't count calories really) I was doing about 2400 calories a day of pizza on top of 2250 calories worth of ice cream inclusive of the rest of my diet, thats an easy 4600 or so calories right there and I skyrocketed to 240 very easily.

It seems to me, the only way you can really get to where you want to be is to eat a hell of a lot more... with the demand you are putting on your body... your 2800 calories aren't getting you anywhere.... what you want is bulk... you should be closer to 3500-4000 calories... even at your size... your metabolism is probably faster than most guys with 50 pounds on you...

Sounds like your training is going well... You just need to eat more food... find food that is cheaper...

Yep I have an easy 90 pounds on you and you are already eating a good amount, thats how our metabolisms differ

I *was* 10.4%, I'm now at about 13% since I have gained a *little* weight in the past few months.

Do you think some higher GI foods would help? I don't see how they would, since the energy from the carbs is utilized (or rather stored as fat) so much more quickly.

Ultimately, it's diet though eh? I'm pretty sure my training is "on-the-ball". I have no idea if what I lift is even "respectable", given my small size, but I need something to make my shirts rip here

Pretty much all I have for carbs are slow-oats, yams, brown rice, and the most natural bread you could imagine.

3500 calories at 140 pounds. Yeah, I'll just say "fuck it" to sleep, and eat all night

Seriously though, 5 meals a day is hard enough with the schedule I have.

At least I know more food is a start - is it best to add more carbs first? That would seem to make the most sense to me...

I appreciate the advice by the way

have you considered doing 6 weeks of lower volume training? That may help you break through the plateau... like maybe even something extreme to where you are spending half the time you spend now in the gym... I've heard this can really help hard gainers... but then again, I've heard the opposite can help too...

either way, do something drasticly different... maybe all new exercises for 6 weeks... I think if the body isn't being shocked enough by the workouts... it just won't grow...

Hmmm... well I switch the exercises every 4 to 6 weeks... and I'm lifting weights that are heavy enough that I find it a real challenge to pull off 6 to 8 reps with proper form.

The problem is, if I start with a weight that's so heavy I can just barely pull off six properly, then I can only get 4 or 5 off the next set at that weight, then 3 or 4 the third (maybe even less) - in other words, every exercise turns into dropsets. That would be more condusive to strength gains from what I understand, and I'm looking for mass - hence why I pick weights that I can do for three full sets, with the same number of reps in each (6 to 8).

When I first did "strength" training to get my initial figures up, I picked weights I could only do about 3 or 4 reps with per set.

The three 6-8 reps per set (I do three sets) that I do now is a challenge regardless, so I'm certainly not "taking it easy". I'd call it shock I think, but then again, everyone's idea of shock is different. And it's hard to shock the body with heavier weights if it leads to me doing only a couple of reps and turning purple

Thats what the 10s/5s/2.5s are for, so you can drop the weight easily each progressive set. I normally lose about 1 rep with every movement if I dont drop the weight.

10s/5s/2.5s?

Do you mean I should switch to, for lack of a better term, "strength" workouts, aiming for 3-5 reps of heavy-arse, turn-purple, scream-like-van-damme weights instead?

Everyone has always advised the 6-8 rep range, from GoPro to well... everyone else. Like I said, I need size. Strength isn't important yet

I am talking about weight plates, instead of swapping a 35 for a 45, just use 35s and some 5s for instance. It makes it easy between sets to drop some poundage. If I bother dropping the weight at all, I usually lose 10 pounds at a time. If I start with an 8 rep set though, by my 4th set I can still do 5 reps which is not terrible, so normally I dont for bench work, other stuff sometimes, it depends on how much I can keep up with the workout, how many sets I'm doing etc

Ah, yes, very true. But I normally aim for a weight I can hit for 6 reps at least, each set.

Should I revert to some good old 3-5 rep "Strength" sets for a few weeks? That's shock for sure, but not conventional mass training from what I've read.

You could try it, some people just go for a "5x5" routine which is sets of 5 reps. I like some variety, to me 8 is plenty fine for mass which is more what I'm after than strength although its nice having both. I can't do low reps forever because it starts hurting me, plus you are at risk of overtaxing the CNS.

To me 8 reps IS heavy, I can bench 295x8 and from there I just lose a rep a set. I think I would probably end up weaker if I started out with 315x5 and did 3-5 every set, for a changeup sure but not every workout.

But thats JMO, what works for you may be different. In fact one of the things I liked about HST was the rep changeup, 15, 10, and then 5.

Sounds interesting. Unless I used a fairly moderate weight, instead of a heavy one, pulling off 5 sets won't happen.

If dropping one rep a set is alright, would it be better to go 8,7,6 or 6,5,4.

Obviously (well at least for me) that'll have a fairly sizeable impact on what weight I start with. Mass first, strength later.

Thanks for all the prompt advice by the way, it's giving me some direction

I prefer to start around 8/9 before I add any kind of weight. I am not powerlifting, yet I still get plenty of strength gains like this.

http://www.criticalbench.com/chart.htm
http://www.huskerpower.com/1RM.html

Alright, good enough then - I'll aim for 8 reps ,7 reps, 6 reps then I suppose (3 sets). Like I said, since I look like a freaking jockey, size matters right now, and strength be damned

So. More food (that's gonna be tough), and it's ok to drop a rep per set.

Good info, many thanks.

(I got all that right, right? heh)

If anyone else has ideas, PLEASE help.

I like more than 3 sets for almost anything, but I suppose it depends how many movements you are doing too.

If we are talking bench for me at the moment its:

4-5 sets decline
4 sets incline
3-4 sets pec deck or cable X over

hmmm... bench I do 3 sets dumbell press, 3 sets dumbell decline, 3 sets flye (at least right now).

I find that anymore than three sets and I can't do more than a couple of "proper" reps.

After all, for mass/strength I was always told use very challenging weights, and there's no way I can personally do 5 sets of a challenging weight in any exercise.

BlueCorsair in your 5 - 6 meals are you including a meals from pre and post workouts.

When I say I take in 5 meals, I'm not including my immediate pre, or post workout calories - which is more less a simple shake on each end.

Generally, I hit the gym after "breakfast" - about one hour after my first meal. I don't take anything pre-workout other than a creatine supp that has a hefty built-in insulin spike, and glutamine. Post-workout I have two scoops of whey, 5 grams glutamine, and one 5 gram serving of that insulin-spiking creatine supp again.

The 5 meals I count towards my "plan" are all actual meals. If you inclue the PWO, that makes sometimes six meals on days I hit the gym.

I'll be switching my workouts to the afternoon soon, once I'm back at university - likely between meals wo and three, or three and four. I'm not sure what my schedule will be yet.

oh ok. I was once at a low body wieght like you, 125lbs at the age of 18. What i did was took my pwo shake weather i workout that day or not. Also you should try and add two more protien shakes to you daily meal plan just take them in addition to you regular meals. And if you really want the size maybe add more carbs to each meal.
I dont know if this is what you want or if it will help any, but good luck.
Also, if price is an issue i heard you can make your own protien shakes with powdered milk. I dont know how it tastes, but im planning on trying it myself.

Good tips SOS, cheers man.

Like I said though, I'm already ranging between 1.5 and 1.75 grams protein per of weight - adding yet MORE whey seems a costly idea that may not do much I think.

The extra carbs is a good thought though, thanks. Guess I'll have to eat more oats