PDA

View Full Version : Does anyone else feel like there addicted to steroids



Just a guy
01-03-2004, 03:19 PM
do ya?

plouffe
01-03-2004, 03:55 PM
I've never takin steroids -- But I could imagine if I were to get amazing results by taking them ( along with proper diet and training ) Yes, I'd say I would be somewhat addicted to steroids.

bandaidwoman
01-03-2004, 04:10 PM
Comment in:
JAMA. 1990 Apr 18;263(15):2048-9.

Hooked on hormones? An anabolic steroid addiction hypothesis.

Kashkin KB, Kleber HD.

Substance Abuse Treatment Unit, Connecticut Mental Health Center, New Haven.

Widespread illicit anabolic steroid use has recently been reported. A review of available evidence suggests that elevations of serum levels of steroid hormones, including anabolic steroids, have profound psychological effects. Long-term, high-dose anabolic steroid use may lead to a preoccupation with drug use, difficulty stopping despite psychological side effects, and drug craving. Reductions in serum levels of steroid hormones appear to result in acute hyperadrenergic withdrawal symptoms that respond to steroid replacement or to agents that also ameliorate withdrawal symptoms in alcohol and opioid dependence. A delayed depression syndrome when serum steroid levels drop precipitously has been reported that appears similar to that observed in withdrawing cocaine-dependent individuals. We conclude that a proportion of anabolic steroid abusers may develop a previously unrecognized sex steroid hormone-dependence disorder and that treatment should be based on research into steroid effects on opioid and aminergic neurotransmission systems and relapse prevention.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 2681859 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Just some info.

QuestionGuy
01-03-2004, 04:47 PM
damn, bandaid woman has always these smart answers for us aon whatever it is.... lol, hang around here ok ?

MeatheadSam
01-03-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by plouffe
I've never takin steroids -- But I could imagine if I were to get amazing results by taking them ( along with proper diet and training ) Yes, I'd say I would be somewhat addicted to steroids.


My fear of addiction to their results was what always kept me from using. I also fear the health risks but it is the extraordinary growth that would probably hook me.

plouffe
01-03-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by QuestionGuy
damn, bandaid woman has always these smart answers for us aon whatever it is.... lol, hang around here ok ?


Amen.

Mudge
01-03-2004, 06:15 PM
Almost any drug can be a 'gateway drug,' certainly steroids are no exception. Some people have lost thier lives going onto other things after starting with gear, and it gets some people over thier fear of needles, opening the door for things like heroin for anyone stupid enough.

What Sam said is a good thing for anyone to think about, if you dont think you can control yourself or would rather not open the door, then dont.

Power Rabbit
01-03-2004, 10:57 PM
Just make sure your cheap...when your tight fisted with your cash its alittle harder for addiction to take hold..

Mudge
01-03-2004, 11:09 PM
I am cheap. I spend money effectively to get what I want.

BUSTINOUT
01-03-2004, 11:19 PM
Nope never felt addicted. I contemplated long and hard before my first injection back in 1990. Been clean for nearly 2 years now and when I do go back on, it will be for specific reasons...not addiction.

maddog1
01-07-2004, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Just a guy
do ya?

If you do, you need to address some deep rooted issues beyond health and fitness.

Flex
01-07-2004, 08:06 AM
not addicted (...yet), but already stocked up for the future......

Prince
01-07-2004, 08:26 AM
I feel that I am addicted to PH's, does that count? :D

Flex
01-07-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Prince
I feel that I am addicted to PH's, does that count? :D

well hey, at least its not crack:thumb:

i dont think ph's will kill ya bud.........we all wanna take whatever will get us the best physique we can have. plus, ph's are roids, so thats good......

maddog1
02-15-2004, 06:51 AM
This is why Just a Guy needs to get off steroids. He is just a High School kid (That can't seem to graduate high school). This kid is the poster boy for when the President says steroids are bad for America's youth.

Just a Guy - You need to turn yourself into a school counselor, a friendly cop (dg is down your way - I'm sure he can get you some help.)

maddog1
02-15-2004, 06:54 AM
On the flipside - to responsible AAS users, this kid is a train wreck waiting to happen and when it does, the parents will undoubtedly find the steroids and blame it on them. Maybe they'll find this site cookied on his machine, access his account and see that people have been giving him advice and come after the site or its owner.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 07:44 AM
Fucker... are u still talkin? Man i want to run in 2 u one day... Because honestly you sound like a Weak peice of shit... I get lab tests done EVERY month... im healthy as a horse... i will GLADLY whoop ur ass... Responsible AAS user.... son of a bitch.. thats what i try to be.. im using every protectant i can get my hands on... I go to the doc if one thing messes up... but u know what the doc said to me.... Your on roids?? I see your big and everything but your Cholesterol and everything is in normal range.... So maddog u have pissed me off ENOUGH to where im at the point where i want to hunt u down and whoop the shit out of u... What have u accomplished? Not shit... SO quit talkin.... This is why i have been in and out of jail... Because of Fuqers like u talkin shit... Sorry to all of the mods here and everyone reading this... but I cant take no more of this guys shit... I think he jealous heh :rolleyes:

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 08:03 AM
So when i said addicted... do u think i start shaking and going into DT's because i havent had a shot today? No im addicted to the sense that i like the gains i''ve been getting... and dont want them to stop... train wreck?? by far that is what im not.... Yes i ask fellow Roiders if they have had a certain problem that i have had so maybe i dont have to go to the doc... all im doin is tryin to be safe and ask questions... i dont like being pissed off... because i embarass my self when im pissed.. and/or i go to jail...

So maddog... if u ever see a thread of mine... or anything where im tryin to get other Roiders opinions on something DONT PUT MY NAME IN UR MOUTH...

See now if mudge said i was a train wreck.. i would KNOW something is wrong because he knows his shit... but u my man.. dont know nothing...

plouffe
02-15-2004, 10:19 AM
hehe. :bounce:

MarcusMaximus
02-15-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by bandaidwoman
Just some info.


This is not directed to bandaid woman. merely to point out that there are some flaws in that particular article that many of you have noticed.

1. Define widespread,
2 the waffle word "may" is very interesting. anyone involved with politics will know the contextual meaning of "waffle" . it use limits the impact of whatever comes after. this way, the authors or politician has his/her ass covered whenever something goes amiss from the hyposthesis.
3 Define what proportion falls under that category.
4. Seems what they did was STOP IMMEDIATELY with no tapering. not a very intelligent method and this type of study is designed specifically to prove a PRE HOC hypothesis.
As this is an abstract from an JAMA archive, i will go through my own refereneces. I can't see how this alleged proportion be any higher or lower than the percentage of people who get hooked on other drugs prescribed by medical prac.

comparing steroid use to cocaine is a specious argument. This again, simply plays to the public fear ( unfounded ) that steroid use goes hand and hand with cocaine use. it may happen that the two coincide in a certain percentage of the population yet it would appear more likely that steroid DEALERS also deal cocaine. So the gateway drug may be AAS but not for the user but for the dealer.

People who are unable to control their anger have that anger amplified while on does of steroids that result in supra-physiological level of androgen hormones. I think that one of the posters in this thread has succinctly shown that point quite well!

maddog1
02-15-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Just a guy
So maddog u have pissed me off ENOUGH to where im at the point where i want to hunt u down and whoop the shit out of u... What have u accomplished? Not shit... SO quit talkin.... This is why i have been in and out of jail... Because of Fuqers like u talkin shit... Sorry to all of the mods here and everyone reading this... but I cant take no more of this guys shit... I think he jealous heh :rolleyes:

Please come and get me.

What have I accomplished... By getting you to prove for me that you are a lunatic on steroids. Good work.

maddog1
02-15-2004, 12:25 PM
If you are going to hang out on these boards, you should change your handle to "Just a Kid" so that people won't give you advice.

If you look at my other posts, I said I was concerned for you.
Then to find out that you are a teenager, makes me realize that you are in worse shape than I thought you were in.
You need help and you need it quickly.
I you take that as an insult then you must be in denial.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 01:19 PM
How do u know i need help? u have never met me... i have always been like this... im not a LUNATIC on steroids... im prolly a lunatic anywayz.... Your are not tryin to act concerned.. your tryin to act like an ass... everyone of your post are very critical and not "Suporting", but im 19 bout to be 20... so im old enough... im already supposed to be in my 2nd year of college... SO maddog... kiss my ass... Dont try to act like the nice guy...

plouffe
02-15-2004, 01:20 PM
You need help and you need it quickly. - I wouldn't go that far.. It's not that detrimental to his health.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 01:24 PM
and by the way maddog... i dont live with my parents.. So why would they have anything to do with this... Im not a fuckin youngin.... I do my own shit.. make my own decisions... now get your ass in a gym and start lifting like a man and quit actin like a pussy... and quit judging...

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 01:24 PM
exactly... i mite be a little aggressive but i dont need a straight jacket

maddog1
02-15-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Just a guy
How do u know i need help? u have never met me... i have always been like this... im not a LUNATIC on steroids... im prolly a lunatic anywayz....
Anyone who threatens people and wants to hurt others (You said in your other thread) needs a check-up from the neck-up.

The point is you obviously have problems with anger - if you have been in and out of jail. As you can see, this may have played a roll in your not graduating high school on time - only you know.

The steroids only make this worse and that is the point with you.

Giving steroids to you is like giving a drink to an alcoholic.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 02:02 PM
cuz... You know WHY i went to jail?? Pieces of shit like you.. that have NO IDEA what they are talking about.. and try to tell me what 2 do... and talk to me like im some kind of dog.. Listin man.. I dont like being belittled.. im not ignorant... You my man have bitch in your blood.. The only person i gave a threat to.. WAS YOU BITCH... I said i FELT anger towards people but i KNOW that would be fullish of me to act on those feelings to someone undeserving... u would deserve every bit of it... If i could.. and God i WISH i could.. i would jump though your PC screen and beat the shit out of you with your mouse... u know why.. BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT... Because your a sarcastic know it all that dont know shit.. ironically... MUDGE PLEASE CLOSE ALL OF THESE POSTS... this is starting to get stupid... You sound like my fiance' man... bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch ALL DAY LONG :headbang:

bandaidwoman
02-15-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by MarcusMaximus
This is not directed to bandaid woman. merely to point out that there are some flaws in that particular article that many of you have noticed.

1. Define widespread,
2 the waffle word "may" is very interesting. anyone involved with politics will know the contextual meaning of "waffle" . it use limits the impact of whatever comes after. this way, the authors or politician has his/her ass covered whenever something goes amiss from the hyposthesis.
3 Define what proportion falls under that category.
4. Seems what they did was STOP IMMEDIATELY with no tapering. not a very intelligent method and this type of study is designed specifically to prove a PRE HOC hypothesis.
As this is an abstract from an JAMA archive, i will go through my own refereneces. I can't see how this alleged proportion be any higher or lower than the percentage of people who get hooked on other drugs prescribed by medical prac.

comparing steroid use to cocaine is a specious argument. This again, simply plays to the public fear ( unfounded ) that steroid use goes hand and hand with cocaine use. it may happen that the two coincide in a certain percentage of the population yet it would appear more likely that steroid DEALERS also deal cocaine. So the gateway drug may be AAS but not for the user but for the dealer.

People who are unable to control their anger have that anger amplified while on does of steroids that result in supra-physiological level of androgen hormones. I think that one of the posters in this thread has succinctly shown that point quite well!


These are excellent points and questions:


Define widespread: The prevalence of anabolic steroid use has been reported in several populations. The highest estimates have come from male bodybuilders (of course) and have ranged from 38% to 55%. (Tricker R, O'Neill MR, Cook D. The incidence of anabolic steroid use among competitive bodybuilders. J Drug Educ. 1989;19:313-325.
Lindstrom M, Nilsson AL, Katzman PL, Janzon L, Dymling JF. Use of anabolic-androgenic steroids among body builders -- frequency and attitudes. J Intern Med. 1990;227:407-411.)

Lower rates have been reported among intercollegiate athletes, ranging from 15% to 20%.( Dezelsky TL, Toohey JV, Shaw RS. Non-medical drug use behaviour at five United States universities: a 15-year study. Bull Narc. 1985;37:49-53.)

By contrast, only 1% of nonathletic university student counterparts reported anabolic steroid use.(Newman M. Michigan Consortium of Schools Student Survey. Minneapolis, Hazelden Research Services, 1986.
and Windsor R, Dumitru D. Prevalence of anabolic steroid use by male and female adolescents. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1989;21:494-497)

Also, there is a rather high rate of anabolic steroid use among high school students. The typical rate reported in male students is between 5% and 6%, but rates as high as 11% have been reported.(Yesalis CE, Streit AL, Vicary JR, Friedl KE, Brannon D, Buckley W. Anabolic steroid use: indications of habituation among adolescents. J Drug Educ. 1989;19:103-116.()

Of course, most physicians would rather have anabolic steroid use than cocaine use.



The waffle word "may" is very interesting. anyone involved with politics will know the contextual meaning of "waffle" . it use limits the impact of whatever comes after. this way, the authors or politician has his/her ass covered whenever something goes amiss from the hyposthesis.


No, researchers are honest and make no grand conclusions about what their hypothesis means.(unlike the media) Using may and probably, they are being honest and accurate in what they are suggesting...and the paper was clear about using the word hypothesis.


. Seems what they did was STOP IMMEDIATELY with no tapering. not a very intelligent method and this type of study is designed specifically to prove a PRE HOC hypothesis.

Actually, many of the participants were allowed to stop or continue based on their normal usage patterns.


can't see how this alleged proportion be any higher or lower than the percentage of people who get hooked on other drugs prescribed by medical prac.

This is not a comparison, just pointing out that steroids are not completely free of addictive potential and that some people are vulnerable to steroid addiction and that it should not be discounted. In much the same way, the psychiatric establishment has concluded that steroid rage behavior does not occur in the average user except in those that are already psychiatrically predisposed ie: antipersonality disorder, short fuse syndromes etc. As you stated, compared to other drugs, the addiction rate is definately not as high.


comparing steroid use to cocaine is a specious argument. This again, simply plays to the public fear ( unfounded ) that steroid use goes hand and hand with cocaine use.

I agree.

This is another article that looked at self reported potential for addiction by anabolic hormone users using a very strict DSMIIR criteria.


The potential for addiction to the AASs has been investigated. In interviews with 49 AAS users, at least 1 DSM-III-R symptom of dependence was reported by 94% of the sample, while 3 or more symptoms were reported by 57% of the sample. The authors concluded that AASs are not free from potential addictive behavior and suggested that dissatisfaction with body size and increases in size and strength obtained with AASs may lead to patterns of dependent use.

{Yates WR, Perry PJ, MacIndoe J, et al. Psychosexual effects of three doses of testosterone cycling in normal men. Biol Psychiatry. 1999;45:254-260. }


Sorry, these were hard copies I had in my office, so no internet links.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 02:11 PM
wow..., nice

maddog1
02-15-2004, 02:12 PM
First of all, you are not nearly capable of inflicting any bodily harm to me.
Second of all, I'm not going anywhere and your request to close the thread shows your weakness.
Hunt me down. You are a wiz kid with a computer, so you should be able to.
I'll give you a few days to fail at that and then I'll PM you with my address so you can drive up and get the surprise of your life.
You are a fucking WIMP LOSER.

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 02:19 PM
ohh what happen mister calm... looks like a struck a nerve... cuz im capable of putting your fat ass on the ground and pissing on you... what are you like 250?? aint shit cuz.. when i was at 245 i was benching WAY less than what i am now... There's no possible way i could find out where you live.. im not a wiz kid on a comp.... but listin to me mad... If we ever met.. you would be feel VERY uncomfortable with me around... trust me... knocked fuckers out that were 270 nothin but fat.. and thought they were big... aint shit too me cuz...

Just a guy
02-15-2004, 02:23 PM
but thats not a threat my man... no possible way we would ever meet... so lets just end this... starting to get ugly...

Here... i'll be the man about the situation... Truce... u can accept it.. or not.. i dont give a shit... but im going to quit posting towards you... because its going nowhere... and mods are angry

MarcusMaximus
02-15-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by bandaidwoman
These are excellent points and questions:

...range of use 1% - (low extreme ) to 48%+ ( high extreme )....

Of course, most physicians would rather have anabolic steroid use than cocaine use.

MM - The use of the word widespread was not defined in that abstract. Researchers, as scientists should choose their words carefully as it could be infered that widespread meant in the general public. out of 300 000 000 peopl in the USA and 40 000 000 in Canada, i would expect the incidence of AAS use to be between 0.01% and 10% overall. Local pockets of people within certain sports/activities of course would have a higher percentage of users.



No, researchers are honest and make no grand conclusions about what their hypothesis means.(unlike the media) Using may and probably, they are being honest and accurate in what they are suggesting...and the paper was clear about using the word hypothesis.


The word 'may' is a clear 'waffle' word used just as i stated. Every paper has a stated hypothesis and the conclusion is almost always " more research is needed in this area" after they list the limitations of their research.



Actually, many of the participants were allowed to stop or continue based on their normal usage patterns.

No dosages were listed or given. clarification was needed at the start. no information was given as to what constituted their 'normal usage pattern. If indeed a precipitous drop was detected, perhaps what is needed is not prohibition but education .


This is not a comparison, just pointing out that steroids are not completely free of addictive potential and that some people are vulnerable to steroid addiction and that it should not be discounted. In much the same way, the psychiatric establishment has concluded that steroid rage behavior does not occur in the average user except in those that are already psychiatrically predisposed ie: antipersonality disorder, short fuse syndromes etc. As you stated, compared to other drugs, the addiction rate is definately not as high.

it has never been definitively shown that ut is a psychological addiction or a physiological addiction with respect to steroids. just as buddy said, t is an addiction to the state of being that AAS creates. It most likely or MAY eventually be shown that it is combination of the two.


I agree.

This is another article that looked at self reported potential for addiction by anabolic hormone users using a very strict DSMIIR criteria.

{Yates WR, Perry PJ, MacIndoe J, et al. Psychosexual effects of three doses of testosterone cycling in normal men. Biol Psychiatry. 1999;45:254-260. }


Sorry, these were hard copies I had in my office, so no internet links.

That report rings a bell but not the authors. I shall look it up later, or i MAY not.. depends. What is true is that ppl with known personality disorders have these traits/behaviors amplified as well as the trigger threshold seems to be lowered. IN THOSE SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS. Within any group of people exhibiting behavior A, 4% will be pretty extreme of either end and there will be 0.35% of the people who exhibit the most extreme esamples. Of that last group 0.35%, 0.175% will be so extreme as to be completely unreal.

These boards are not representative. the members are no way near being a random sample. that said, it is easy to point out those ppl on these boards who respond in such a manner that only disproves their very argument


yall have a good one.
mm

MarcusMaximus
02-15-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Power Rabbit
Just make sure your cheap...when your tight fisted with your cash its alittle harder for addiction to take hold..
this is me to a T. Russian D-bol, ( actually methyl test which is funny ) is being sold for 120 Canadian ( maybe a buck quarter american ). That is just outrageous so i don't bother. and brother looks you right in the eye and tells you he is giving you a great deal too.... sheesh.

MarcusMaximus
02-15-2004, 03:11 PM
i can only believe that the interaction between maddog and just a guy on this thread was prompted by something other than this topic. That it is essentially a carry over from something else that happened earlier on. i actually thought that this was a valid point and a worthy thread so it's troublesome that it fell apart to this.

bandaidwoman
02-15-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by MarcusMaximus
MM - The use of the word widespread was not defined in that abstract. Researchers, as scientists should choose their words carefully as it could be infered that widespread meant in the general public. out of 300 000 000 peopl in the USA and 40 000 000 in Canada, i would expect the incidence of AAS use to be between 0.01% and 10% overall. Local pockets of people within certain sports/activities of course would have a higher percentage of users.

This took place in New Haven, CT and it sounds like they were referring to their own reports rather than a national consensus. I think widespread is relative word anyway. A 20% collegiate athlete usage is relatively widespread, anything that affects 20% of a certain population by epidemiological standards is an epidemic.




The word 'may' is a clear 'waffle' word used just as i stated. Every paper has a stated hypothesis and the conclusion is almost always " more research is needed in this area" after they list the limitations of their research.

I believe they suggested that looking at the opoid and aminergic neurotransmitter response and hyperadrenergic response to steroid withdrawel would be helpful in the future as a line of research. Many papers use may and it does not detract it from being good research.




No dosages were listed or given. clarification was needed at the start. no information was given as to what constituted their 'normal usage pattern. If indeed a precipitous drop was detected, perhaps what is needed is not prohibition but education .


This was just an abstract. I will scrounge up the full methodology lagter.



It has never been definitively shown that ut is a psychological addiction or a physiological addiction with respect to steroids. just as buddy said, t is an addiction to the state of being that AAS creates. It most likely or MAY eventually be shown that it is combination of the two.

That's true, but if their hyperadrenergic response is real, (as measured by the serum stress catacholamine levels) and their response to medications used for cocaine/opoid withdrawels , then it does point to a physical basis in some, but I believe for most it is a psycological addiction.



That report rings a bell but not the authors. I shall look it up later, or i MAY not.. depends. What is true is that ppl with known personality disorders have these traits/behaviors amplified as well as the trigger threshold seems to be lowered. IN THOSE SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS. Within any group of people exhibiting behavior A, 4% will be pretty extreme of either end and there will be 0.35% of the people who exhibit the most extreme esamples. Of that last group 0.35%, 0.175% will be so extreme as to be completely unreal.

These boards are not representative. the members are no way near being a random sample. that said, it is easy to point out those ppl on these boards who respond in such a manner that only disproves their very argument

True, it is called participant bias in clinical medicine. Usually they try to make it a random selection, and do not tell the participants what they are looking for, if possible. Those who responded to the research questionaire may have had underlying psych issues that prompted them to seek out or be amenable to such research.

The whole point of the paper, (though not a perfect study,) had some features that were promising in terms of future research ie: I was most compelled by the fact that medicines used to calm or attenuate opoid/cocaine withdrawel were used in some of the participants which produced a profound amelioration of their symptoms. That makes for a good reasearch if it brings up more avenues of research for the future even though it never answers its hypothesis....such is the majority of scientific, clinical research anyway.

There are very few definative conclusions that are more common in the pure physical sciences . When it comes to biological medical conclusions, the only conclusions are that x is true if y, and z, are true under the conditions of e,f,g and only pertaining to those with attributes h,i,j etc. etc. As you have hinted at. :D

It's a wonder anything ever gets done!

BUSTINOUT
02-15-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Just a guy
Fucker... are u still talkin? Man i want to run in 2 u one day... Because honestly you sound like a Weak peice of shit... I get lab tests done EVERY month... im healthy as a horse... i will GLADLY whoop ur ass... Responsible AAS user.... son of a bitch.. thats what i try to be.. im using every protectant i can get my hands on... I go to the doc if one thing messes up... but u know what the doc said to me.... Your on roids?? I see your big and everything but your Cholesterol and everything is in normal range.... So maddog u have pissed me off ENOUGH to where im at the point where i want to hunt u down and whoop the shit out of u... What have u accomplished? Not shit... SO quit talkin.... This is why i have been in and out of jail... Because of Fuqers like u talkin shit... Sorry to all of the mods here and everyone reading this... but I cant take no more of this guys shit... I think he jealous heh :rolleyes:

Lighten up. Crap like this is the very reason people blame all this attitued shit on AS.

MarcusMaximus
02-15-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by bandaidwoman
...It's a wonder anything ever gets done!

you have agreed with everything i wrote. if x is true, then y is true, however it may not turn out to be the case that if y is true then x must be true as well.

the scientific research carried out was flawed.
More to a point that you have made: a 20% prevalence is preposterous in college. out of 5000 people at the university, then 1000 would be taking steroids. what these sorts of studies tell me is that they picked a group of people not representative of a random sampling. There is a statistical method to use in order to find "n': the number of people in your sample that when polled, would adequately represent the population of size "S". this would be dependent on the prevalence of the response/behavior in quesiton.
if any study finds a 20% penetration of the population, then they must have used the entire football team as their study subjects.

nice to have your comments . i don't find them anti or pro anything. as with myself, you present the facts as you perceive them. it is left up to the reader to interpret them as they wish.

MM