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View Full Version : How long till your gains become permanent? or do they?



CRASHMAN
09-28-2004, 12:02 AM
just a question. i don't do steroids,but i do get alot of questions about them.

If you make great gains on a steroid cycle and come off correctly, Will you keep your gains permanently? i know you can't keep all the gains you make on a cycle while coming off, but does the muscle become permanent or will you eventually lose that to? (if you don't do another cycle?)or does it all disapear as soon as your diet does?

Mudge
09-28-2004, 12:28 AM
If you dont eat enough calories to maintain weight it wont stay, nothing is permanent and I dont believe in "metabolic set point changing," at least at this time I dont.

Example on why I dont care:

If it takes 17 calories per pound for me to maintain, look at how easy it is:

220 pounds 3740
250 pounds 4250
300 pounds 5100

170 calories per 10 pounds? Easy. Now this maintenance number can certainly change, but even the big guys like Mike Francois would bulk off 8k calories, not an astronomical number given his maintenance.

As for hormones, you can only maintain so much on a piddling amount of natural hormones. Look at retired pros, they are nowhere near the same size, probably tired of the eating and the large amounts of drugs. If I could eat 4k calories and not 5k and I wasn't earning my living being a freak and watching my blood every 2 weeks, I probably would.

CRASHMAN
09-28-2004, 01:20 AM
so would it not be suggested to come off and huge bulking cycle and cut right away is there a set time you should wait before cutting? and i know everyones different but how much more could you expect to lose when you cut? possibly all?

LAM
09-28-2004, 09:00 AM
a lot of how much gains are kept and lost post cycle has to do with baseline levels of certain hormones, cortisol total T levels and free T would probably be the main ones. it is physiological impossible to maintian a high amount of LBM with low T levels.

Mudge
09-28-2004, 11:05 AM
so would it not be suggested to come off and huge bulking cycle and cut right away is there a set time you should wait before cutting?

Tell me if you are talking diet cycle or steroid cycle, because if you cut naturally then you are more likely to lose LBM as opposed to maintaining it.

CRASHMAN
09-28-2004, 09:36 PM
Tell me if you are talking diet cycle or steroid cycle, because if you cut naturally then you are more likely to lose LBM as opposed to maintaining it.

Hypothetically lets say both (like what would the answers to each be?)

would it be better to take steroids and bulk or take them and cut?

TrojanMan60563
09-29-2004, 05:36 AM
Hypothetically lets say both (like what would the answers to each be?)

would it be better to take steroids and bulk or take them and cut?


The best way to cut and not lose muscle is to be on cycle while cutting. So you have to decide what the goal of the cycle is before starting. You are either going to bulk or cut. I think you can do a little of both if diet is right on, but you can't expect to get huge and cut at the same time because diet is what determines what your going to do no the drugs.

Pirate!
09-29-2004, 06:40 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but this is on the subject. If I am going to do a 12-14 week cycle, could I bulk for 8 weeks, then cut for the remainder? I would just reduce calories and add T3--maybe up the cardio to 3 or 4 times a week. Wouldn't this be better than eating at maintenance the whole time, trying to make lean gains?

ZECH
09-29-2004, 10:03 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but this is on the subject. If I am going to do a 12-14 week cycle, could I bulk for 8 weeks, then cut for the remainder? I would just reduce calories and add T3--maybe up the cardio to 3 or 4 times a week. Wouldn't this be better than eating at maintenance the whole time, trying to make lean gains?
Not being ugly here, but I don't see the point in this. I'm old school........you either bulk or cut. Not both.

Pirate!
09-29-2004, 12:23 PM
The point would be to make optimal gains while on cycle and end with less fat than I would otherwise. Everytime I cut (naturally) I lose muscle. I don't want to be fat for 4 months before I can start a cutting cycle.

ZorroAzul
09-29-2004, 01:35 PM
Pirate, I see where you are coming from and this is what I do myself. I have a very fast metabolist, so just by cutting back calories a couple of weeks I get ripped to shreads, and by having the gear in my system I avoid LBM loss as much as possible.

I guess it is different for people that need more effort to shed fat.

Pirate!
09-29-2004, 01:56 PM
Pirate, I see where you are coming from and this is what I do myself. I have a very fast metabolist, so just by cutting back calories a couple of weeks I get ripped to shreads, and by having the gear in my system I avoid LBM loss as much as possible.

I guess it is different for people that need more effort to shed fat. :thumb: Thanks.

TrojanMan60563
09-29-2004, 06:06 PM
Hey Pirate I think it's possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. It's a matter of diet being correct. You have to make sure your getting enough food for muscles to grow, but eating few enough calories so that your able to shed fat. I think anyone can do this but it takes knowing your body and how much of what it needs to get the desired effect. IMO if your getting fat on a cycle in order to get the best muscle increase then you are eating too much. There is obviously a line where if you eat more you will store fat. So finding that fine line is the key. Just by gaining muscle you will burn more calories and lose fat. The more muscle you add the lower your bodyfat % will be.

Pirate!
09-29-2004, 07:44 PM
Right. That is what I meant by lean gains--gaining muscle without fat by eating just the right amount. So you think that is preferable to eating over maintenance for optimal bulking for most of the cycle, then cutting calories to just under maintenance for the last few weeks of the cycle to lose fat and gain a little muscle?

TrojanMan60563
09-29-2004, 08:16 PM
Pirate that is my thinking. I realize many think you can only bulk or cut, but I do not totally agree. I'm sure by over eating you maximize the muscle gains, but I would rather skip out on a few pounds of muscle to avoid putting on fat. I think eating just enough to not get fat is the right approach then drop calories before the cycle ends to cut some fat while still on gear. Even adding in some T3 the last 4-6 weeks of the cycle sounds like a good plan...I want to run 12 weeks and do a clean bulk for the first 8 weeks and drop calories and add T3 the last 4 to lose any excess bodyfat.

Tough Old Man
09-29-2004, 08:54 PM
Mr. Lam and Mr. mudge please jump in here. If your goal is to bulk to 300 lbs. If you obtain that weight goal, is that when you start your cutting. Example ME. I started at 253 LBs and now weigh in at 276 lbs. I know a lot is water. I want to have a walking weight of 275, in other words i want 22 lbs of lbm if possible. So I'm going to try to get up to 300 and then start cutting. Am I going about this right or wrong way?

Pirate!
09-30-2004, 06:43 AM
Pirate that is my thinking. I realize many think you can only bulk or cut, but I do not totally agree. I'm sure by over eating you maximize the muscle gains, but I would rather skip out on a few pounds of muscle to avoid putting on fat. I think eating just enough to not get fat is the right approach then drop calories before the cycle ends to cut some fat while still on gear. Even adding in some T3 the last 4-6 weeks of the cycle sounds like a good plan...I want to run 12 weeks and do a clean bulk for the first 8 weeks and drop calories and add T3 the last 4 to lose any excess bodyfat.
Sounds like your plan is exactly what I had in mind. :D

ZorroAzul
09-30-2004, 08:39 AM
T.O.M., I've read both sides of the issue.

If your goal is far from where you are now, then it is ok to do a couple of bulking cycles, then cut, then couple of bulkers again and so on... Not bulk for 100 lbs and then cut.

I personally cut on the last week of cycle and before PCT starts... all I need is a couple of weeks of reduced calories to shed any fat I might have put on by the extra eating.

Mudge
09-30-2004, 10:22 AM
would it be better to take steroids and bulk or take them and cut?

Both :haha:

Mudge
09-30-2004, 10:24 AM
So I'm going to try to get up to 300 and then start cutting. Am I going about this right or wrong way?

You can do that sure, just watch the blood pressure and such. I'd love to hit 300 and keep it, even 275 would be great (I'd like to hit 270-275 before I come off this time). I am not as willing to put on lots of fat any longer, so I am not really aiming for more than 2 pounds a week or 3 at the most.

Tough Old Man
10-01-2004, 08:44 PM
Well the blood pressure since i stopped the d-bol is back to normal running from around 120's over 75-84. also my total cholestrol came in at 155. My doctor thought i was crazy when i told him i was on steroids. he did say that i was his first. but then he gave me what i wanted paper for the lab undated so i could go when i wanted. said he could only do it once because of my insurance, unles i wanted to pay the whole bill myself then it wouldn't matter.