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ZECH
11-02-2004, 10:07 AM
From FContact MMI...................This exactly is my thoughts on it.


Estrogen & Muscle Gains

Will lowering estrogen levels, while keeping androgen levels constant, hurt or hinder muscle gains?

The use of agents to lower estrogen levels (aromatase inhibitors), or to block estrogen action at the receptor (estrogen receptor antagonists), has become quite en vogue lately. Personally, I think they are overused and could hinder muscle mass gains.

I have discussed before the potential suppressant effects of anti-estrogen compounds on GH and IGF-1 production. But beyond that, there may be direct beneficial effects of estrogen on androgen activity in muscle that may be blocked by anti-estrogens.

One important mechanism involved in muscle growth is the formation of NADPH, which is used as the prime source of energy (reducing power) in anabolic processes. Androgens are well known to stimulate one of the key enzymes involved in the formation of NADPH, called glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. Furthermore, glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase is also involved in the production of raw materials for nucleic acid synthesis. Nucleic acids biosynthesis is required at high rates in regenerating tissues.

One of the most widely documented effects of androgens is stimulation of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, and this is thought to be key to their anabolic activity. A recent study found however that without estrogens, androgens are not able to fully exert their stimulatory activity on this enzyme. The authors conclude that androgens and estrogens may exert synergistic effects on skeletal muscle. (Max SR ,"Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase", Mol Cell Endocrinol 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7)

The same author also found another mechanism by which estrogens may increase the activity of androgens in skeletal muscle. He used rats that had their testes removed and then administered androgens to them, with and without estrogens. What he found was that estrogens caused a very substantial increase in the binding of androgens to their receptors. He hypothesized that this is due either to a greater synthesis, or a decreased degradation of, androgen receptors. (Rance NE, Max SR, "Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids", Endocrinology 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6)

So you see that it may be time for bodybuilders to rethink the use of anti-estrogen compounds. I think that a risk to benefit determination has to be considered, and unless someone feels that he is a high-risk case for estrogen related side effects, he probably should pass on the anti-estrogens.

ryuage
11-03-2004, 04:13 AM
better safe then sorry :)

Oneiros
11-03-2004, 06:25 AM
Please clarify whether there is any research available concerning supraphysiological levels of estrogen, as is the case with extended aromatization of androgens.

Mudge
11-03-2004, 07:20 AM
There are lots of health concerns with high levels of estrogen that is for sure. Right now I'm still not convinced that everyone should be all estrogen-happy.

When I see the HRT doctors remove their previous positions about recovery and cancer concerns, then I may be more prone to lowering my anti aromatase doses.

How are we to know also, that this is not a minute difference in gains compared to being "much safer?" This is one problem here where things become experimental or things aren't so sure. Like people using nolvadex instead of clomid for post cycle treatment, when clomid is supposed to be slightly superior to the point some people think nolvadex is no good. I am using clomid this time but I generally FEEL much better on nolvadex, leading me to feel more recovered anyway. And despite it hurting some of your anabolic abilities I dont notice one shit of difference.

So something being a "better" way of doing it on paper doesn't always come out all that better that you would even notice unless you used your microscope, and the tradeoff may not be worth it.

ryuage
11-03-2004, 12:03 PM
why not use both clomid and nolva for pct.

Mudge
11-03-2004, 12:52 PM
I have, when I had clomid to get rid of. Then went to nolvadex only, currently "trying" clomid only.