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rgrmike74
02-02-2005, 05:54 PM
Just wondering why is it ppl do cycle after cycle? Wouldnt after a while your body would stop growing now matter the amount AS you put into it. Or is all the gains of AS temporary and a cycle must be done every once in a while to maintain?
Just a thought that popped into my head.

LAM
02-02-2005, 06:11 PM
all depends. some people do not want to go through the hassle of PCT and trying to remain as productive in the gym as possible while test levels slowly get back to normal, so they simply stay on all year round. and yes the body does stop growing even while taking supraphysiologic doses of anabolics. this most likely has to due with gene expression, since we know that the AR receptor does not downregulate.

and yes some people have to stay on all year round to keep the mass that they have. this is common with AAS users who are well beyond their natural genetic potential, and for some people who just have crap genetics to begin with and/or natural low test production.

I know plenty of competitive bb'ers who stayed on for years and once they stopped using their bodies atrophyed some and after several months of PCT they regained natural test production.

thatguy
02-02-2005, 06:27 PM
all depends. some people do not want to go through the hassle of PCT and trying to remain as productive in the gym as possible while test levels slowly get back to normal, so they simply stay on all year round. and yes the body does stop growing even while taking supraphysiologic doses of anabolics. this most likely has to due with gene expression, since we know that the AR receptor does not downregulate.

and yes some people have to stay on all year round to keep the mass that they have. this is common with AAS users who are well beyond their natural genetic potential, and for some people who just have crap genetics to begin with and/or natural low test production.

I know plenty of competitive bb'ers who stayed on for years and once they stopped using their bodies atrophyed some and after several months of PCT they regained natural test production.
Interesting, LAM. Good info.

So competitive bodybuilders stay on year round and don't come off until they retire? Or is that just something a few people have done?

LAM
02-02-2005, 07:02 PM
i've known several amature guys over the years who stayed on cycle the entire time they competed. one guy who was Mr Deleware back in the late 80's I know was on for at least 4 years straight. who "really" knows what the pros do. statisically some have to be on cycle all year round.

gococksDJS
02-02-2005, 07:41 PM
Pros also have to use insane doses due to the fact that they stay on year round. I would like to know how many grams a week of test some of those guys use. LAM do you know any doses for a typical year round pro?

LAM
02-02-2005, 08:01 PM
nah. I wish I did.

Purdue Power
02-02-2005, 09:10 PM
I have been wondering that, too, myself. I am sure that they are on year round, especially Jay, who has to overtake Ronnie. And I would like to know how much of what they take. They are probably on at least 2g of test a week. O no, wait. Jay is on CellTech....he is good to go.

thatguy
02-02-2005, 09:25 PM
I have been wondering that, too, myself. I am sure that they are on year round, especially Jay, who has to overtake Ronnie. And I would like to know how much of what they take. They are probably on at least 2g of test a week. O no, wait. Jay is on CellTech....he is good to go.
You think? 2 grams a week? That sounds just insane. I wonder how that affects their personalities.

brodus
02-02-2005, 09:42 PM
Oh, I think 2 grams a week minimum, actually, especially if there trying to open the "new growth pathway," that I believe Duchaine talked about (~10grams total anabolics WEEKLY!)

I saw Andreas Munzer's shopping list--insane. You have no idea:

10-9 Weeks before the Competition daily: Ephederine, AN 1, Captagon, Aspirine, Valium, Clenbuterol

8-6 weeks before the Competition daily: 2 injects Testoviron a 250 mg
1 inject Parabolan
30 tabletts Halotestin
30 tabletts Metandienon
20 IE* STH
20 IE* Insuline

5-3 weeks before the Competition daily: 3 injects Masteron
2 injects Parabolan
30 tabletts Halotestin
50 tabletts Stromba
2 injects Stromba
24 IE* STH

2-1 weeks before the Competition daily: 2 injects Masteron
2 injects Stromba
40 tabletts Halotestin
80 tabletts Stromba
24 IE* STH
Insuline
IGF

A few days before the Competition: Aldactone, Lasix

A German Trainer added this:

The drugs that you have listed under 10-9 weeks, is what he used daily all through the cycle. So the drugs listed under 8-6 weeks should read 10-6 weeks (before the comp).

Under 5-3 weeks you have left out insulin. All through the cycle he also used thyroid hormone.

The methandienon listed is Dianabol from Thailand. STH is GH. The article states that the cost of his drugs and supplements-creatine, aminoacids,vitamins, etc. must have been 10 000 DEM/month, which is about 6150 USD.

brodus
02-02-2005, 09:43 PM
"Just today I got THE REAL STORY. It turns out he was using a drug (not sure which) that increases the thickness of the blood to promote a super compensation of glycogen in the muscles (to fill out during competition); somewhat like blood doping. His flight back to Germany caused dehydration (which long flights do). After landing he began drinking fluids and (I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how these factors led to his death) with his dehydrated state and very thick blood his liver basically disinegrated. I guess in his state if it wasn't the liver than something else would have gone -- he was basically a dead man walking at that point.

First his liver, then his kidney and to be continued his heart failed. After all this, his stomach was filled wis blood and he died. He refused a blood transfusion. Why? Don't know ... but I think, it was almost to late to bring him back.

Probably Erythropoeitin (sp) also known as EPO also known as Epogen. A genetically engineered version of the protein hormone formed by the kidneys that stimulates formation of red blood cells.

I was talking to someone who knew Andreas and they also said he was taking EPO before his death. As well as blood pressure medication and the numerous other drugs pros have to use today to stay in contention."

thatguy
02-02-2005, 09:47 PM
Oh, I think 2 grams a week minimum, actually, especially if there trying to open the "new growth pathway," that I believe Duchaine talked about (~10grams total anabolics WEEKLY!)

I saw Andreas Munzer's shopping list--insane. You have no idea:

10-9 Weeks before the Competition daily: Ephederine, AN 1, Captagon, Aspirine, Valium, Clenbuterol

8-6 weeks before the Competition daily: 2 injects Testoviron a 250 mg
1 inject Parabolan
30 tabletts Halotestin
30 tabletts Metandienon
20 IE* STH
20 IE* Insuline

5-3 weeks before the Competition daily: 3 injects Masteron
2 injects Parabolan
30 tabletts Halotestin
50 tabletts Stromba
2 injects Stromba
24 IE* STH

2-1 weeks before the Competition daily: 2 injects Masteron
2 injects Stromba
40 tabletts Halotestin
80 tabletts Stromba
24 IE* STH
Insuline
IGF

A few days before the Competition: Aldactone, Lasix

A German Trainer added this:

The drugs that you have listed under 10-9 weeks, is what he used daily all through the cycle. So the drugs listed under 8-6 weeks should read 10-6 weeks (before the comp).

Under 5-3 weeks you have left out insulin. All through the cycle he also used thyroid hormone.

The methandienon listed is Dianabol from Thailand. STH is GH. The article states that the cost of his drugs and supplements-creatine, aminoacids,vitamins, etc. must have been 10 000 DEM/month, which is about 6150 USD.
Absolutely unbelievable.

gococksDJS
02-02-2005, 09:51 PM
I could have sworn I read somewhere that Markus Ruhl shoots upwards of 5 grams a week, but I cant find where it said that.

gococksDJS
02-02-2005, 09:52 PM
5 grams of test that is...

SJ69
02-02-2005, 10:11 PM
"10-9 Weeks before the Competition daily: Ephederine, AN 1, Captagon, Aspirine, Valium, Clenbuterol"

What was the Valium for? Sleep aid?

thatguy
02-02-2005, 10:19 PM
What was the Valium for? Sleep aid?Maybe all that crap running through your system has enough behavioral influence that he needs Valium.

Purdue Power
02-03-2005, 06:04 AM
Unbelievable, indeed. I sure as hell hope that I never get caught up in this shit that bad. I highly doubt that I will ever have a lapse in judgement like that.

brodus
02-03-2005, 06:36 AM
Yeah, I mean look at how big these guys stay, year-round. Granted some have genetics to support a lot of this weight, but some surely do not. While your androgen recpetors don't "downregulate" perse, they can get fried/burned out. At that point you might be shooting 3-5 grams a week just to feel normal.

Trevor Smith and Dan Duchaine were both proponents of mega-dosing, and a lot of people took their advice very seriously.

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be on 5 grams of test a week for years, and then come off. Talk about depression.

Mudge
02-03-2005, 07:16 AM
You think? 2 grams a week? That sounds just insane. I wonder how that affects their personalities.

A lot of that test gets soaked up to the point where much of it is probably "wasted." More does not neccessarily give a return that you'd expect, which is why I am back down to 500mg, I prefer stacking than bumping up to high doses.

NPC guys will rarely dip under 1.5 grams a week per injectable, so you can rest assured the pros are right around there as a minimum.

From the list above Munzer was doing 500mg of test enanthate every day putting him at 3.5 grams a week, and he was not a big guy compared to todays pros.

TrojanMan60563
02-03-2005, 08:53 AM
I've met quite a few pro's and all of them act "normal" except Chris Cormier. He always seems to be off in space when I meet him or talk to him. Maybe its the anabolics or it could be something like valium...who knows.

My question is how do they keep up on their cycles when they are traveling from show to show? Its obviously way to risky to put the drugs in their luggage so how do they keep their cycles going while traveling from show to show?

LAM
02-03-2005, 08:58 AM
send a package to the hotel you are staying at and have them hold it. I've done it for business trips when I didn't feel like carrying about a bunch of documents with me.

brodus
02-03-2005, 09:29 AM
RE: Cormier's "spaciness"--Probably not Valium or Anabolics, but likely Oxycontin or a similar opiate-based pain reliever. Or maybe he's just a pothead!

RE: Package to hotel: And tell them you're a vetrinarian!

Flex
02-03-2005, 10:19 AM
it's amazing how much juice it takes to become a pro BB.

and i can't believe that some people STILL insist genetics are the most important factor...

TrojanMan60563
02-03-2005, 11:52 AM
Flex I think genetics is the most important factor in BBing. That is the factor determining if your going to succeed in the sport. The large amounts of juice contribute greatly to the amount of mass these guys carry but genetics is the difference between say Jay Cutler and Dave Palumbo.

Flex
02-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Flex I think genetics is the most important factor in BBing. That is the factor determining if your going to succeed in the sport. The large amounts of juice contribute greatly to the amount of mass these guys carry but genetics is the difference between say Jay Cutler and Dave Palumbo.

No doubt genetics are extremely important.

I just think that people don't understand how much drug use (more like "abuse") play a role as well, that's all.

ZECH
02-03-2005, 12:20 PM
Probably Erythropoeitin (sp) also known as EPO also known as Epogen. A genetically engineered version of the protein hormone formed by the kidneys that stimulates formation of red blood cells.


Yep it increases red blood cells. Many long distance runners and cyclists use it to increase oxygen absorption.

brodus
02-03-2005, 12:30 PM
EPO can be extremely dangerous. There was a thread on Avant about it onetime. I read an extensive test log once, too. It's really not something to mess around with. It can permanently reset your baseline blood volume, permanently raise your BP, and of course, kill you.

The research I have done over the past six months has led me to conclude I will never be a competitive BBer!

Mudge
02-03-2005, 01:10 PM
and i can't believe that some people STILL insist genetics are the most important factor...

I would agree. A person with better genetics can use less and still get better results. A person with better genetics, will look better PERIOD. Can anyone be a Flex Wheeler or Jay Cutler? Hell no.

Yes genetics matter.

Flex
02-03-2005, 03:47 PM
I would agree. A person with better genetics can use less and still get better results. A person with better genetics, will look better PERIOD. Can anyone be a Flex Wheeler or Jay Cutler? Hell no.

Yes genetics matter.

Genetics or not, who knows how Flex would've looked had he not abused roids since age 20.

Sure, Flex had like perfect muscle shape, bellies etc., but you see him recently? Granted he was sick and was done with training, but the guy was a beanpole, much as Platz had become after his pro career was done. That shows they aren't mesomorphs (right?), therefore IMO steroids had a BIG ass deal in their physiques, more than genetics did anyways.

rgrmike74
02-03-2005, 04:35 PM
ok now that we all think pro use year round what bout the casual user? will he have to do a cycle once a year to maintain or are the effect of takn gear able to be held onto with correct PCT then a good maintenance lifting program?

brodus
02-03-2005, 04:57 PM
I think what it comes down to is whether or not your genetic potential exists to support X amount of muscle mass while doing X amount of training.

There are a lot of variables. Enhanced recovery and protein synthesis via anabolic steroids has a huge part to play in how much you can train without injury, total weekly volume, etc. I think what Flex means by genetics is essentially "How big would that person have been, had they not been on a 5-year cycle?"

We get into the realm of "genetic potential." I think as an average user you can reach your genetic potential faster. But I don't think anyone can argue that supra-physiological levels of muscle mass can be held onto WITHOUT supra-physiological levels of hormones.

TrojanMan60563
02-05-2005, 11:22 AM
I think guys like Flex and Dexter are those naturally lean can eat whatever they want kind of guys. They can eat fast food and not gain a pound...they can get shredded very easily. I also think that when you take all the drugs away from their diets all the food they consume wouldn't mean shit....they would shrink up to being a lean SMALL guy. I feel that steroids is what makes these kind of BBers able to compete in the heavies. I think guys like coleman and cutler are naturally able to pack on the beef even without the drugs. I would bet that Cutler uses less then Dexter overall.

Tha Don
02-05-2005, 01:26 PM
I think guys like Flex and Dexter are those naturally lean can eat whatever they want kind of guys. They can eat fast food and not gain a pound...they can get shredded very easily. I also think that when you take all the drugs away from their diets all the food they consume wouldn't mean shit....they would shrink up to being a lean SMALL guy. I feel that steroids is what makes these kind of BBers able to compete in the heavies.

true, this is a message flex wrote on his website when asked how big he was before he started bodybuilding (juicing):


I WAS TINY MAN, IF YOU SEEN MY BOOK THERE IS A PHOTO IN THERE OF ME, WELL ANYWAY TINY TINY. IN THE PHOTO I HAD BE WORKING OUT FOR OVER 5 YR AND I'M SMALL THERE.

Tha Don
02-05-2005, 01:35 PM
add a little juice..

http://teamflexwheeler.com/flex/image6_/COLL04068.jpg

not so 'TINY' anymore!

Mudge
02-05-2005, 02:26 PM
Off the juice he is pretty damn small.

Mudge
02-05-2005, 02:27 PM
ok now that we all think pro use year round what bout the casual user? will he have to do a cycle once a year to maintain or are the effect of takn gear able to be held onto with correct PCT then a good maintenance lifting program?

You ask a question with no way to answer it. Is a person using 2-4 grams of substance a week who does not compete a casual user? Someone who only takes off 4 weeks between cycles? There is no way to answer this kind of question without you finding out for yourself.

Mudge
02-05-2005, 02:29 PM
therefore IMO steroids had a BIG ass deal in their physiques, more than genetics did anyways.

I would never disagree with that, I dont have great genetics, I am far stronger than I ever have been. Look at the package Jay Cutler had to start with, versus mine though, and there is a big difference.

Mudge
02-05-2005, 02:35 PM
While Flex also looked great (muscle shape = genetics), keep in mind he was 20+ pounds lighter than the big guys.

brodus
02-05-2005, 03:31 PM
Also, look at his vascularity vs. someone like Ronnie. He (flex) has the veins, but they are small in diameter. Ronnie has finger sized veins networked across bis, legs, etc.

Mudge
02-05-2005, 03:49 PM
Vascular proximity to the skin, and skin thickness definitely has some genetics behind it. Can't change the location of a vein. As for size, that can be changed somewhat through simple blood requirement, blood volume, and whatever else I might be missing. Visibility, through diet.

brodus
02-05-2005, 09:27 PM
Does anyone else think there are some weird synthol-style lumps in his left shouler area in that photo?

Mudge
02-05-2005, 09:56 PM
Not me, all I see is regular old side/rear delt. However I had some lumps myself in the delts (side), just from regular shots (prop/tren).

gococksDJS
02-05-2005, 10:46 PM
Does anyone else think there are some weird synthol-style lumps in his left shouler area in that photo?This is synthol. You can see the pool of oil on top of his bicep.

http://www.extremefitness.com/download.php?Number=54626

Mudge
02-05-2005, 11:20 PM
Only authenticated members of that site can see the pic, and I am not a member.

Tha Don
02-06-2005, 04:27 AM
This is synthol. You can see the pool of oil on top of his bicep.


naaaasty :barf:

why do they do it? don't they know how fake it looks, big fake pockets of oil disguised as muscle :cool2: