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musclepump
05-22-2005, 01:47 PM
Has anyone actually seen or have access to a report of any kind that actually links steroids to death? I'm trying to see how many deaths steroids cause each year, but I can't even find one in history :p

GFR
05-22-2005, 01:55 PM
Has anyone actually seen or have access to a report of any kind that actually links steroids to death? I'm trying to see how many deaths steroids cause each year, but I can't even find one in history :p
See if you can find any from marijuana also...I don't think you will find any for either drug unless other drugs are involved....I did read in the PDR that Anadrol has been the cause of some liver tumors.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I've never thought pot to be a killer either, unless you count those useless brain cells as actual deaths...

Mudge
05-22-2005, 02:09 PM
It takes time to die from steroids, cholestrol doesn't kill you overnight, as an example.

If you want to die quickly, you need to screw up with your insulin useage.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 02:19 PM
But have you ever seen any direct evidence linking steroids to death, Mudge?

Mudge
05-22-2005, 02:31 PM
Mike Matarazzo was close to death at 39 years of age, but he had his arteries cleared in time.

So steroids, no. Its not something that can kill you overnight unless you already have very high BP and it somehow sets you over the edge and you die of a heart attack or brain hemorage.

JACKED
05-22-2005, 02:32 PM
Hey fellas, I was just reading in on the thread and I have an interesting mag about 21/2 years old called, "planet muscle" by the one guy (can't remember his name until I find the mag) married to the bber chic. Anyway the article was huge about roids and the basic tenet was about making an informed decision about using. Anyway it has a list of roids and what they will do to you in their LONGEST TERM EFFECTS i.e. I do remember the anadrol saying that it had to be ingested for 11 months straight until bloody cysts emerged. As I type this i'm looking for the mag in my box cuz i'm sure it had something in there in relation to the question and when I find it i'll qoute it and put up the bibliograph so guys can read it.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 02:36 PM
Mike Matarazzo was close to death at 39 years of age, but he had his arteries cleared in time.

So steroids, no. Its not something that can kill you overnight unless you already have very high BP and it somehow sets you over the edge and you die of a heart attack or brain hemorage.
Obviously it's not an overnight thing. But like tobacco is linked to 420,000 deaths a year, I'm just trying to find any actual stats that link steroids to death. They can't link steroids to cancer, so those deaths go unaccounted for, you know?

GFR
05-22-2005, 02:38 PM
Hey fellas, I was just reading in on the thread and I have an interesting mag about 21/2 years old called, "planet muscle" by the one guy (can't remember his name until I find the mag) married to the bber chic. Anyway the article was huge about roids and the basic tenet was about making an informed decision about using. Anyway it has a list of roids and what they will do to you in their LONGEST TERM EFFECTS i.e. I do remember the anadrol saying that it had to be ingested for 11 months straight until bloody cysts emerged. As I type this i'm looking for the mag in my box cuz i'm sure it had something in there in relation to the question and when I find it i'll qoute it and put up the bibliograph so guys can read it.

Thats information copied out of the PDR....it's a great read if you have access to one

musclepump
05-22-2005, 02:41 PM
Pdr?

GFR
05-22-2005, 02:42 PM
Pdr?
Physicians Desk Reference

musclepump
05-22-2005, 02:44 PM
ah

JACKED
05-22-2005, 02:53 PM
HEY FELLAS!! I Found It!!! Lemme read it real quick and I'll post it.

JACKED
05-22-2005, 03:36 PM
Planet Muscle Volume5 #3. Medical ...Literature by Jeff Everson

Rumors of serious side effects related to steroid use, and particularly oral steroid use, in otherwise healthy individuals, begun in the early seventies. However, the bulk of actual data revolved around hospitalized patients.

In a landmark literature review in 1975, researchers reported 12 cases of cancer development associated with steroids. Again, the caveat was that these subjects were already hospital patients, compromised in some medical manner and subsequently treated with steroids.
For example researcher Johnson reported a case of Fanconi Anemia where a 20 year old male received 10 months of treatment with ANADROL 50 (oxymehylone). The patient developed liver cancer with bloody cysts and Died. One patient who Dr. Johnson reveiwed developed l...eukemia after being treated with 300mg. Per day of ANADROL (ouch!) for a NINE-MONTH period. A different patient with a case of non-descended testicles, treated with Methyltestosterone, developed primary cancer, which then spread.
Doctors have also noticed that liver tumors often shrink and disappear with cessation of steroid administration.

Here is Dr. Johnsons orginial list of the oral anabolic steroids, doses and time length of use, associated with side effects of a serious nature in hospitalized patients:

Anadrol 10-250mg/day 10-51months Liver cysts, tumor, leukemia

Methyltestosterone 20 to 50mg/day 1-165 months Liver tumors

Winstrol 2.5 to 15mg/day 18 months Liver tumors

Dianabol 20 to 150mg/day 12-18 months Liver tumors

Halotestin 15 to 80mg/day 4-16 months bloody cysts

Nilevar 20 to 30 mg/day 2-9 months bloody cysts

GFR
05-22-2005, 03:42 PM
Planet Muscle Volume5 #3. Medical ...Literature by Jeff Everson

Rumors of serious side effects related to steroid use, and particularly oral steroid use, in otherwise healthy individuals, begun in the early seventies. However, the bulk of actual data revolved around hospitalized patients.

In a landmark literature review in 1975, researchers reported 12 cases of cancer development associated with steroids. Again, the caveat was that these subjects were already hospital patients, compromised in some medical manner and subsequently treated with steroids.
For example researcher Johnson reported a case of Fanconi Anemia where a 20 year old male received 10 months of treatment with ANADROL 50 (oxymehylone). The patient developed liver cancer with bloody cysts and Died. One patient who Dr. Johnson reveiwed developed l...eukemia after being treated with 300mg. Per day of ANADROL (ouch!) for a NINE-MONTH period. A different patient with a case of non-descended testicles, treated with Methyltestosterone, developed primary cancer, which then spread.
Doctors have also noticed that liver tumors often shrink and disappear with cessation of steroid administration.

Here is Dr. Johnsons orginial list of the oral anabolic steroids, doses and time length of use, associated with side effects of a serious nature in hospitalized patients:

Anadrol 10-250mg/day 10-51months Liver cysts, tumor, leukemia

Methyltestosterone 20 to 50mg/day 1-165 months Liver tumors

Winstrol 2.5 to 15mg/day 18 months Liver tumors

Dianabol 20 to 150mg/day 12-18 months Liver tumors

Halotestin 15 to 80mg/day 4-16 months bloody cysts

Nilevar 20 to 30 mg/day 2-9 months bloody cysts

My brother in law was hospitalized years ago ( for what I cant remember) and they put him on a 10 day Anadrol cycle. And get this the first day was 800mg.......yep. every day they decreased the dose...no wonder people in hospitals die from steroids. Hell 4 % of all drug related deaths in America are due to prescription drugs.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 03:43 PM
Methyltest pretty bitching at 1 month :thumb:

JACKED
05-22-2005, 03:50 PM
Another snippet from this same article states a death attributed to steroid use according to author Bob Goldman in a Flex Magazine article and in his book DEATH IN THE LOCKER ROOM; the case of Daniel Baroudi, a serious bodybuilder who had self-prescribed a series of different anabolic steroids over a 5-7 year period. Baroudi developed primary liver cancer and his doctors concluded that it was his heavy use of oral steroids that had induced his cancer. Sadly Mr. Baroudi died in 1984.

In 1985 another serious recreational bodybuilder, William Loomis, was hospitalized with cancerous tumor of his liver. Mr. Loomis had been using doctor-prescibed Anadrol, non-stop, for almost 2 years. It was not a high dose but Anadrol is a notorious Liver-unfriendly, oral steroid. Mr. Loomis did have periodic blood exams, which ofted do not detect the presence of a tumor which was the case here.

Mudge
05-22-2005, 03:54 PM
There is a famous case with a woman on anadrol who also developed lesions on the liver. We trust these people with our lives sometimes and look at the STUPID shit they do. I had my own blood work done during one of my anadrol runs and I know what my limits are, and its nowhere near 10 months at high doses.

Morons.

PDRs are outdated by the time they hit the shelves by the way, and they dont include speculative data that could be up to the minute stuff. I have one anyway, just for kicks.

JACKED
05-22-2005, 03:54 PM
Boys this stuff tells me two things. Don't let DRs perscribe you juice, and Drugs are drugs no matter who prescribes em.

Mudge
05-22-2005, 03:58 PM
Drugs are drugs no matter who prescribes em.

Kind of like, an apple is an apple not an orange. Yeah.

Doctors working with accutane are supposed to show restraint when prescribing it, and they are supposed to monitor your liver values. I have heard people say they are tested as often as twice a month.

JACKED
05-22-2005, 04:02 PM
From the same article, a run down of the tests one should get while on the sauce:

1) Blood Glucose

2) Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN)

3) Creatinine

4) The BUN/Creatinine ratio

5) Total Protein

6) Albumin

7) Globulin

8) Albumin/Globulin ratio

9) Total Bilirubin

10) Alkaline Phosphatase

11) GGTP

12) AST (SGOT)

13) ALT (SGPT)

14) LDH

15) Cholesterol... DUHHHH!!

16) HDL and LDL cholesterol fractions

17) The Cholesterol/high Dnisity Lipoprotein

18) Triglycerides

19) Total Testosterone

20) Cortisol

JACKED
05-22-2005, 04:05 PM
Hey try telling a Doctor to test for something they don't normall test for. They think you're trying to insult them. Their like "WHY DO YOU THINK YOU NEED THIS?" "SAYS WHO?" Or this one "I guess you went to school for 14 years blah blah blah"

I can't stand most doctors.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 04:07 PM
These are all liver things, it seems. But would it be the steroids actually causing it, or just undue stress on the liver in general? Alcohol could be associated too, and it may be oral steroids in general just pushing the liver too far, not necessarily one specific type.

JACKED
05-22-2005, 04:18 PM
Thats sounds like it to me. It more than likely seems to be the undue stress caused by Alpha Alkalated drugs. Also paticular dosages for long periods of time. Thats is why I thought that chart would be useful because it gives us a concrete explanation as to how long one could push the envelope on these orals to get maximum results. IT DEFINATELY SAYS THAT ROIDS WERE THE DETERMINING CAUSE OF THESE AILMENTS. In reality looking @ it from the stand point of alcohol use mixed with an oral version one could say that it is still the roid causing the damage. I haven't known one alcoholic to develop bloody cysts, tumors, or Leukemia from Alcohol alone but we are reading that its happened from the juice. My Uncle actually is a heavy drug user and alcholic who just contracted some sort of liver infection and he's been drinking everday I've know him for 20 years. When I say Heavy drug use I mean HEROIN. He dosen't have bloody cysts and the like.

Mudge
05-22-2005, 04:47 PM
It isn't the steroid that is eating the liver its that its an oral drug DESIGNED to resist liver breakdown which causes liver stress.

Look at Tylenol abusers, they helped put it #2 on the map for causes of cirrhosis.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 05:24 PM
nice facts :thumb:

musclepump
05-22-2005, 06:07 PM
Thats sounds like it to me. It more than likely seems to be the undue stress caused by Alpha Alkalated drugs. Also paticular dosages for long periods of time. Thats is why I thought that chart would be useful because it gives us a concrete explanation as to how long one could push the envelope on these orals to get maximum results. IT DEFINATELY SAYS THAT ROIDS WERE THE DETERMINING CAUSE OF THESE AILMENTS. In reality looking @ it from the stand point of alcohol use mixed with an oral version one could say that it is still the roid causing the damage. I haven't known one alcoholic to develop bloody cysts, tumors, or Leukemia from Alcohol alone but we are reading that its happened from the juice. My Uncle actually is a heavy drug user and alcholic who just contracted some sort of liver infection and he's been drinking everday I've know him for 20 years. When I say Heavy drug use I mean HEROIN. He dosen't have bloody cysts and the like.
Intraveneous doesn't hit the liver like orals do

Mudge
05-22-2005, 07:54 PM
Jacked, if you study blood tests ALT and AST balance even with both values high, will not be the same between an alcoholic with liver problems and a person with high liver values from medicine. The stress to the liver is not exactly the same.

musclepump, I think you mean intramuscular injections.

musclepump
05-22-2005, 08:32 PM
He mentioned Heroine and liver problems; I'm assuming heroine is shot into veins? ;)

Mudge
05-22-2005, 08:41 PM
Yep, that or smoked etc

musclepump
05-22-2005, 08:45 PM
Yah, so I meant intravenious.

JACKED
05-23-2005, 08:50 AM
Jacked, if you study blood tests ALT and AST balance even with both values high, will not be the same between an alcoholic with liver problems and a person with high liver values from medicine. The stress to the liver is not exactly the same.


Hey mudge, great point. :thumb: Also, if you guys remember the whole Tom Prince thing he said that his doctor told him it wasnt the high levels of test, hgh, and all the anabolics but it was the 8-20 advil per day he was taking that destroyed his kidneys. If you guys remember his kidneys went (instead of liver) but it is interesting to note that it is the PILLS DESIGNED TO PASS THROUGH that destroys the liver like MUDGE SAID.

So I guess in this tiny bit of research we can all attest the fact that STEROIDS THEMSELVES DO NOT KILL.

Mudge
05-23-2005, 10:27 AM
Wow, 8-20 anything per day is not good unless its a safe herb or water soluble vitamin.

Steroids themselves dont kill in the short term, again unless its a bad blood pressure issue, but in the long term someone can destroy their health and die early from it - through cholestrol problems and so on.

HardTrainer
05-23-2005, 11:02 AM
Wow, 8-20 anything per day is not good unless its a safe herb or water soluble vitamin.

Steroids themselves dont kill in the short term, again unless its a bad blood pressure issue, but in the long term someone can destroy their health and die early from it - through cholestrol problems and so on.

How about jundice?

Mudge
05-23-2005, 11:59 AM
Jaundice takes months to develop unless you really are retarded. Thats not overnight like a coke overdose, or insulin.

Flex
05-23-2005, 12:11 PM
I'm trying to see how many deaths steroids cause each year, but I can't even find one in history :p

That's because steroids have never directly caused death.

Mudge
05-23-2005, 12:16 PM
Yeah, its like AIDS doesn't kill anyone, but it destroys your immune system (Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome) so you end up dying of something else. If you abuse steroids you can kill yourself, but its not going to happen overnight.

Again look at Matarazzo, spitting up blood is not a sign of good health. Being out of breath after short jogs is not a sign of good health. He had heavily restricted arterial blood flow, he ate a lot of red beef and he probably ran a good load of drugs too, it looks like he didn't look at his health closely enough until he was close to going under. Anthony Clark just passed from a heart attack after long term problems, I dont think he was 40 years old. Some of that may have been genetic as he is a naturally 'big guy.'

If you lose your liver, you lose your ability to properly metabolize some amino acids, clean the blood, release certain hormones - and so on.

musclepump
05-23-2005, 12:29 PM
Still makes me wonder if these liver problems are actually caused by steroids, or simply stressed place on the liver by foreign objects passing through it.

Mudge
05-23-2005, 01:33 PM
No it is not the steroid bro. If the steroid alone could pass the liver there would be no need for methylation, but it is done to help it survive the liver. Problem is, this makes the liver work hard to break down this substance which places a strain on it, it can become overworked. When it can't do its job, it leaks bilibrubin into the bloodstream which causes itching, and eventually yellowing of the skin.

I have experienced the itching stage, when my AST/ALT were "only" 25% over high-normal. I had seen one persons blood work with values 4x of high-normal running almost nothing, a very sensative person. I was doing 200 drol ED, and M/W/F 20mg of accutane, along with 2 injectables.

Tough Old Man
05-23-2005, 09:14 PM
Yep, that or smoked etc
Leaves me out as i only use orals......Right PT......go back to sleep.what's happening Pump

ABLQ2
06-07-2005, 11:07 PM
a lot of stereroid users will have heart attacks or heart problems later in life, because steroids thicken the left ventricle and make the muscle tissue stiffer causeing your heart to be much less effective. steroids are bad for you, they do studies on this shit. look it up in scientific journals, not the latest issue of muscle magazine, or the top bodybuilding site. these people have no credability.

musclepump
06-08-2005, 08:06 AM
a lot of stereroid users will have heart attacks or heart problems later in life, because steroids thicken the left ventricle and make the muscle tissue stiffer causeing your heart to be much less effective. steroids are bad for you, they do studies on this shit. look it up in scientific journals, not the latest issue of muscle magazine, or the top bodybuilding site. these people have no credability.
Growth Hormone isn't a steroid.

Tha Don
06-08-2005, 09:13 AM
great thread guys :thumb:

Tha Don
06-08-2005, 09:14 AM
a lot of stereroid users will have heart attacks or heart problems later in life, because steroids thicken the left ventricle and make the muscle tissue stiffer causeing your heart to be much less effective. steroids are bad for you, they do studies on this shit. look it up in scientific journals, not the latest issue of muscle magazine, or the top bodybuilding site. these people have no credability.
whoa! what is this guy on?

what a load of bullshit

as far as i know the heart problems are caused by the enlarging of the heart on cycle, and then the reduction of size in the heart when you come off, common sense tells me to run as few cycles and as low a dose as possible, don't push myself too far on juice and keep physically active in later life, i think if you are sensible and don't abuse the steroids you have nothing to worry about, also getting bloodwork done is a sensible idea, and is something i plan to do before my next cycle, and also once i decide to come off for good to ensure my health is fully recovered

HardTrainer
06-08-2005, 09:18 AM
whoa! what is this guy on?

what a load of bullshit

how do you know its bullshit?

Tha Don
06-08-2005, 09:28 AM
how do you know its bullshit?
if its not BS then i'd like to see some studies that prove the link between steroids and heart attacks, because i have yet to find any

also he included the phrase... "steroids are bad for you" :blah:

Mudge
06-08-2005, 09:43 AM
Heart enlargement from high blood pressure is permanent. Left ventricle hypertrophy is a side effect of a heart being overworked, as in a distance runner.

Blood pressure is one of the easiest and cheapest things to monitor.

HardTrainer
06-08-2005, 09:53 AM
if its not BS then i'd like to see some studies that prove the link between steroids and heart attacks, because i have yet to find any

also he included the phrase... "steroids are bad for you" :blah:

Well i cant say steroids are "good" for you at the doses bodybuilders take them.

They can trigger things that lead to bad things i.e. some guy got blood posioning from sever acne due to test it got that far becuase his doc didnt give accunte fast enough now he has scares.

some peoples test levels are at 1.5 (normal range 8-28) and dont return for up to a year sometimes (if ever)

the c17aa can fcuk your liver up

the list can go on and on

so yes they are bad for you, just like cigarettes and booze but obviouly there is a differenece between using and abusing, but whatever its still not good for you.

Tha Don
06-08-2005, 11:39 AM
Well i cant say steroids are "good" for you at the doses bodybuilders take them.

They can trigger things that lead to bad things i.e. some guy got blood posioning from sever acne due to test it got that far becuase his doc didnt give accunte fast enough now he has scares.

some peoples test levels are at 1.5 (normal range 8-28) and dont return for up to a year sometimes (if ever)

the c17aa can fcuk your liver up

the list can go on and on

so yes they are bad for you, just like cigarettes and booze but obviouly there is a differenece between using and abusing, but whatever its still not good for you.
i'm not saying that roids are ''good'' for you, but if used properly and with all the right precautions the health risks are pretty minimal IMO

if your test levels are at 1.5 for a year then maybe you should consider running pct? all the effects you have mentioned are easily avoidable/treatable, you could argue that too much of anything is bad for you, even too much water can kill you, the difference is not to confuse use with abuse

TrojanMan60563
06-08-2005, 08:14 PM
no drugs are good for you in the long run. steroids can kill you over time with the bad cholesterol and high blood pressures. Those are all problems that lead to bigger problems that kill you...I think if you monitor yourself on cycle and make sure things like blood pressure do not get too far out of whack then you are probably fine assuming you don't take them forever. These pro BBers take huge doses for years and a lot of them live to be old...just like people that never touch a thing drop dead in their 20s or before even.

ABLQ2
06-08-2005, 10:19 PM
the heart doesnt decrease in its size when you come off the cycle, i recently read. i cant remember where or id site it for you.

TrojanMan60563
06-08-2005, 10:53 PM
I've heard heart enlargement is perminant. Thats what my doc says anyways.

Mudge
06-08-2005, 11:15 PM
Yep, Albert Beckles was still huge in his 60s. He is still alive and in his 70s, he was born in 1930.

Tha Don
06-09-2005, 08:07 AM
the heart doesnt decrease in its size when you come off the cycle, i recently read. i cant remember where or id site it for you.
okay well i'm not 100% certain how much truth there is in this, but i heard that it enlarged on cycle, then decreased in size when you came off, and this increasing/decreasing of size causes the heart to wear down and become weaker, and therefore more prone to heart attacks

i have also heard another theory that the heart gets larger on cycle, then when you come off it stays large, but as your body begins to lose size your heart dosen't need to beat as much as it is now bigger and more powerful, therefore your heart is too strong for your body and this can lead to a heart attack

not sure which 1 is true, but i do agree that roids are not so friendly on the heart

as for kidney failiure here are a couple of quotes from flex wheelers book

I was crushed, out of my mind with grief, and wondering, Why me? And then in a moment of clarity, I had a horrifying thought. "Doc, did this happen to me because I used steroids?" I asked.
"Flex, look at me" the doc said, and I looked away. "Kenny Wheeler, you look at me!" he practically shouted. "Your steroid use has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with this disease. It just comes on like hell on wheels, usually around age 25 in African-American males."

It was really hard to live with this secret. I was afraid that as an athlete, I couldn't show any weakness. And as I write this book, I have new fears. You see, I could produce 100 signed forms from doctors that show otherwise, but I know regular folk are still going to think that I got this horrible disease because I took steroids for two decades. "I'll tell, show, or scream it to anyone who listens that you did not get FSGS from steroids!" my doc always tells me.

Mudge
06-09-2005, 09:43 AM
When the left ventricle becomes enlarged, it evacuates blood poorly causing poorer blood flow - not superior.

JACKED
06-09-2005, 04:11 PM
if its not BS then i'd like to see some studies that prove the link between steroids and heart attacks, because i have yet to find any

also he included the phrase... "steroids are bad for you" :blah::finger: Young is right. You gotta be able to back what your findings with valid literature even if its from the "latest muscle magazine" and I'd have to say most are credible and back all of their literature with a thourough bibliography. As the one I stated on page one of this thread.

Most people look at the pictures instead of read the mags and develop false opinions about the articles within them.

I've read nor seen any paticular study that says 'INJECTABLE TESTOSTERONE' (and only this i'm speaking of) cause ANY Short term nor long term damage. Studies @ doseages as high as 750mg per week. OF Course this double blind study was done with Test E. Said nothing of heart hypertrophy nor atrophy.

However, I can site studies and back them with ref. all day and good or bad that don't say squat. What says something is real world people like on this board whose used them and experienced results good, bad, or indifferent.There's your controlled study!!!;)

How can one have an opinion on something he or she hasn't experienced?

musclepump
06-09-2005, 04:32 PM
Steroids have killed less people than exploding outhouses.

JACKED
06-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Yeah... than a piano dropping outta the sky on your head.

TrojanMan60563
06-09-2005, 10:48 PM
I had an ultra sound on my heart done because of my high blood pressure...and they found my right side of the heart to be slightly larger then normal. I assume that could be comon with heavy lifters over years of training.

Tha Don
06-10-2005, 05:45 AM
I had an ultra sound on my heart done because of my high blood pressure...and they found my right side of the heart to be slightly larger then normal. I assume that could be comon with heavy lifters over years of training.
what cycles have you ran? and how old are you?

what did the docs recommend you do to avoid any problems?

Mags
06-10-2005, 11:25 AM
From the same article, a run down of the tests one should get while on the sauce:

1) Blood Glucose

2) Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN)

3) Creatinine

4) The BUN/Creatinine ratio

5) Total Protein

6) Albumin

7) Globulin

8) Albumin/Globulin ratio

9) Total Bilirubin

10) Alkaline Phosphatase

11) GGTP

12) AST (SGOT)

13) ALT (SGPT)

14) LDH

15) Cholesterol... DUHHHH!!

16) HDL and LDL cholesterol fractions

17) The Cholesterol/high Dnisity Lipoprotein

18) Triglycerides

19) Total Testosterone

20) Cortisol
That's alot of tests, half the stuff I dont even know what the abbreviations stand for etc, so more research on my behalf there. How easy is it to get these tests, don't you have to pay loads etc?

Mags
06-10-2005, 11:39 AM
what did the docs recommend you do to avoid any problems?
This would be cool to know, is it simply to exercise and keep active- you know the usual cardio vascular stuff like running, rowing, swimming or are there more effective or specialised efforts you have to do to keep fit and remain relatively trouble free on gear? I guess the usual eating clean and not to drink/smoke too much etc will play a big part in your general health with or without the use of steroids, but again like what was previously mentioned, you can do all the tests to give you the all clear, then drop down dead, whereas the fat lazy lucky bastards who've drunk and smoked since their teens live into their 80's. Just a genetic lottery?

Mudge
06-10-2005, 01:52 PM
Tests can often be grouped together, i.e. a hormone panel for men could include both test, free test and so on. So you can save money that way. AST, ALT, GGT, bilirubin and other tests can be grouped together in simply a total liver test.

JACKED
06-10-2005, 03:49 PM
Tests can often be grouped together, i.e. a hormone panel for men could include both test, free test and so on. So you can save money that way. AST, ALT, GGT, bilirubin and other tests can be grouped together in simply a total liver test.
So you're saying that you are saying ask for those tests together? I am wondering because I know the girl down @ the lab and I have my girl draw me blood. (Thats what she does for a living)

jeb
06-10-2005, 08:11 PM
what do you mean the itching stage? how does it feel and which part of your abdomen hurts or what??


I have experienced the itching stage, when my AST/ALT were "only" 25% over high-normal. I had seen one persons blood work with values 4x of high-normal running almost nothing, a very sensative person. I was doing 200 drol ED, and M/W/F 20mg of accutane, along with 2 injectables.

musclepump
06-15-2005, 11:44 AM
bump